Beyond Cultural Awareness: Charting the Course for Intercultural Competence in Career Services

Daniel Pack hosts a conversation about intercultural competence in advising international students with Esther Ra and Vicky Lee. Vicky recounts an early negative career services experience that revealed advisors’ lack of understanding of international students’ nuanced needs, including immigration and cultural norms. The speakers emphasize cultural humility and relational advising and present the LBC framework—Launchpad, Bridge, Coach—as a scaffolded approach to culturally responsive career services providing foundational context and real-world examples for U.S. job searching, bridging cultural differences and systems navigation (including addressing imposter syndrome and using tools like GoinGlobal Cultural Wizard), and coaching through ongoing goal setting, follow-ups, and continuous engagement to build agency and career self-efficacy.

Daniel Pack is a Career Exploration Specialist at Syracuse University, where he has spent over eight years helping students navigate their professional journeys. His two passions are supporting international students in their career development and exploring the convergence of AI and career services. He is the author of Culture, Communication, and Community: Navigating School, Work, and Belonging in America, a guide for international students adjusting to American professional and academic environments. He is an active member of the National Career Development Association, serving as Co-chair of the Resources Subcommittee for the International Student Services Committee. Daniel can be reached at dvpack@syr.edu and LinkedIn.

Esther Ra, Ed.D., CCMC, CELDC (she/her) is currently an Associate Director at the University of Pennsylvania’s Career Services where she co-leads the International Committee, collaborating with many internal and external campus partners to ensure the career needs of the international community. Dr. Ra is also a Lecturer at The Wharton School, lecturing in the MBA, Executive MBA, and Global Executive MBA Communications Programs. She is a Visiting Professor at Seoul National University, and has had appointments at Korea University in Seoul, South Korea. She has 25 years of experience in both K-12 and Higher Education sectors as an advisor, professor, researcher, teacher, and professional developer. Dr. Ra is Principal and Founder of ERa Coaching and Consulting (www.drestherra.com), where she collaborates with private clients and organizations towards advancing professional development and career pursuits. She is a daughter of immigrants and a bicultural, first-generation scholar-practitioner, coach, and consultant. She can be reached at estherra@upenn.edu or via LinkedIn.

Vicky Lee, M.Ed., M.S. (she/her) is a doctoral student and Graduate Research Assistant pursuing a PhD in Education at George Washington University’s Graduate School of Education and Human Development. Before returning to school full-time, Vicky worked as a higher education and student affairs practitioner for over 7 years, with hands-on experience primarily in career services and international student services. Vicky also has experience working abroad in England and Scotland. Most recently, she served as the Associate Director of Career Equity, Access & Global Career Development at Suffolk University’s Center for Career Equity, Development & Success. Vicky is an international and first-gen student who aspires to be a scholar-practitioner in higher education. She can be reached at vicky.lee@gwu.edu or via LinkedIn. 

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Transcript

Career Practitioner Conversations

National Career Development Association

Beyond Cultural Awareness: Charting the Course for Intercultural Competence in Career Services

May 12, 2026

Welcome to the podcast. I'm Melissa Venable, NCDA Director of Professional Development, and I'm here with Esther Ra and Vicky Lee, who will share a framework related to intercultural competence in international student career advising. Daniel Pack is serving as our host for this conversation. Daniel, thanks for being here to lead this.

I appreciate all of you, and I'll let you kick it off. Thank you, Melissa. It's a pr- pleasure to be here. My name is Daniel Pack. I am a career exploration specialist at Syracuse University. Uh, and I'm also an NCDA member. Uh, now I'd like to hand it over to, Esther and Vicky to introduce themselves.

Esther, would you like to start? Sure.

Currently I serve joint appointments at the University of Pennsylvania. I'm a, I'm a career advisor and associate director at three schools, and those three schools are the School of Nursing, the Graduate School of Education, and Social Policy and Practice. I co-lead the International Career Development Initiatives here in our office, and the [00:01:00] partnerships.

I also serve as a lecturer in the Wharton School, and I also s- have served and serve as a visiting professor at Seoul National University. And another aspect of my career and identity is also being an executive leadership coach, career coach.

And my name is Vicky Lee, she/her pronouns. I'm currently a PhD student in education in George Washington University's Graduate School of Education and Human Development. Before I transitioned back to school full time, I have been, um, working full time in higher education and student affairs for seven years, primarily in international student advising and career services, specifically on international student career development support.

 Some fun fact, I have worked abroad, uh, in summers to pick up summer gigs in Europe, um, in administrative roles in international summer schools. So I still work within the international education domain, just with a different population, different age group. But [00:02:00] I'm an international educator through and through, and I'm a former and current international students from Hong Kong.

Nice meeting you all.

That's wonderful. Thank you both. Uh, I really appreciate, uh, both of you being here. I also appreciate the honor of, uh, you allowing me to host. Uh, Esther, do you wanna talk about maybe how that come about, and how you and I, uh, first became connected? Absolutely. I, we really had the fortune of meeting through an international student committee a few years back, and we were able to connect with other international advisors much like ourselves.

International meaning we work with student, uh, students on our campuses in the international populations, and consider ourself the international expert advisors. And it's been really wonderful to stay in touch, especially through NCDA and our collaboration with the International Student Services Committee.

Yes, it has been great to, to connect with all of our colleagues. Uh, the NCDA gives us a great opportunity [00:03:00] to meet together and share things like this that, that you and Vicky, uh, are generous enough to share with us today. Vicky, I wanted to ask you a little bit about, uh, uh, the importance of intercultural competence.

Uh, I know you've kind of experienced this from both sides, so you've got a, a unique perspective. Uh, can you tell us a little bit about, uh, you know, why you think, uh, the inter- intercultural competence, uh, is so important for us to understand? Certainly. When I was a freshman in college, international student straight from Asia I actually had a pretty bad experience or negative experience, um, paying career services a visit to discuss my internship search.

 And during that experience, I realized that the advisor was unable to really address some of my nuanced needs recognize the complication that international students may have to the hurdles that international students may have to jump through [00:04:00] in order to, to secure an internship or a job, and just not even understanding the immigration landscape that complicates and and make our job and internship search process more complicated.

 And that experience has constantly served as a reminder at the back of my mind to really be intentional about building genuine relationships with others, um, especially after I became a professional working with international students primarily, um, to really have to stay curious, be a good listener, and engage in lifelong learning when working with diverse population.

And that really goes beyond just the international student population. Um, I would simply put human decency to some degree really lays the groundwork for us to understand, appreciate, and effectively interact with people from diverse cultural context in our work. And obviously, there are specific terms and concepts that we can dig deeper into it, and I'll just have Esther add to this conversation, specifically [00:05:00] on how I call it human decency and how Esther would call it cultural humility.

So in some of our work, we talk about cultural humility, especially in our writing, and one thing we have to remember is that there are different social norms across the world really in respect to how that's defined. And what happens is when students that are international or from other countries come to the Western context, they're often judged against these norms in our current Western context, and they really struggle to code switch because they don't know how, or they don't know that they need to when they're engaging with employers.

And many of them feel bad for asking for help and, or just don't know the knowhow of networking. And also, in many other parts of the world, speaking out or sharing your individual thoughts, you know, they're n- it's not considered culturally polite. And so this often creates a big point of [00:06:00] stress and pressure for many of our students, and this is where self-reliance comes into play, and many students feel like they have to shoulder this on their own.

Thank you both for sharing that. Uh, you know, I think Vicky's experience in particular really highlights the need for career development professionals to have a framework to work from when dealing with international students and, and inter- intercultural competence.

Uh, and perhaps the two of you can go ahead and start explaining how you came up with the LBC framework, and giving us a little bit more insight into what that framework looks like. Through our work and in our writing and presenting together at NCDA, Vicky and I really discovered that there are three main roles a CDP, which is Career Development Practitioner, is tasked with.

And that first one being we are a launchpad, we're also a bridge, and then we're [00:07:00] also a coach, and these are the, the three main roles we've grouped some of our roles into. And this LBC framework, it really builds a foundation of practical- practicality that inter- integrates theory, reflection, applied strategies to really strengthen culturally responsive career services to our students.

And each of these compo- components promotes empowerment and equity in the career development practice. And through our respective global work that we've had, those pieces have also informed our practices with working with international students on our, you know, US campuses, and our international clinical backgrounds implicitly give us some of that insider knowledge.

Particularly for myself, my work in Seoul teaching at Seoul National University, and I, I was also previously at Korea University, [00:08:00] my students really showed up differently in the classroom. Students in other parts of the world are really educated through different models of teaching and are socialized in the classroom in different ways.

And that view may include a professor-centered approach, and it's very consistent with some of their cultures that are embodied in other parts of the world. And so when an international student, a global student, comes to campus and enters into career services, there's a bit of recentering that needs to occur because whether they know it or not, they are- they themselves know what their wants and needs are.

They are the expert on themselves, and we as advisors can provide that launchpad, that first role, to allow students to make those educated choices, know their resources that they're reach- reaching for, and have a starting point [00:09:00] to their career journey. Vicky, would you have any additional thoughts on this?

Oh, I always have more thoughts on things like this. Obviously, as someone who co-created this framework, um, I would add to that the LBC framework sequence, the Launch Pad Bridge Coach sequence, is somewhat intentional because it is meant to be scaffolded. We started by supporting students in building their foundational knowledge, followed by providing additional context, and then continuing, continuing with ongoing support through coaching.

Instead of visualizing the framework as a Venn diagram or a flowchart, the LBC framework functions more so like gears in a machine. They all work in synergy and reinforce each other when considering a holistic approach in international student career advising. Instead of moving all three of the gears at the same time, oftentimes moving one may start trickling Triggering [00:10:00] the rest to get moving, building a momentum in continuous holistic international student career support.

Looking back as a theory geek and also a theory-informed practitioner in higher education and student affairs, I've always wished that there were a little more structured framework to guide my work, especially with international students and diverse population, one that seemed to support my work that could be oftentimes more nuanced or scattered.

 When I mention scattered, it's just because there are a lot of times where, as international student specialists in a career services space, we have to constantly stay on top of different priorities. The changing in economy that lead to different job market changes and shifts, immigration policy changes, shifts in international education landscape, et cetera.

And so having a framework to center our work perhaps could help us be less distracted by outside noises and [00:11:00] really pivot and recenter our work to be student-centered and student-focused. So over the years, um, I have conducted quite a bit of informational interviews with colleagues from across the nation who does, uh, who do similar work as international specialists, international student specialists in career services settings over time to just learn from others and then obviously continue my collaboration with many of them through different committee work.

And many of us actually have been doing wonderful job in supporting international students on their career development journey, and we often get inspired by others to adopt something similar to our campuses, taking into consideration different campus-specific limitations and nuanced needs of our respective international student populations.

Esther, would you like to add to that as well? I, I completely agree that there are so many different nuances. And, you know, my university here, [00:12:00] we have our own nuance and flavor as well, as does every other campus across the country. And I would have to say, like, because I serve different populations across different graduate schools, those respective campus, campuses also differ and also have nuances with campus-specific resources.

I really agree with that, Vicky, that every campus has its own nuances and flavor, and even the populations of students on respective campuses also differ, and those campus-specific resources that are available to them.

, Career development professionals across the country We've learned that we're having similar conversations and thoughts on, on, you know, how can we really better serve our students? We all really care deeply about our students on our campuses, and we desire to do our work with heart and integrity and give students, international students particularly, the best campus experiences [00:13:00] possible, as well as put them on a path for success here in the States

And so the first role in our LBC framework is to have career development practitioners to be a launchpad, to serve as a starting point and support system that helps students understand, navigate, and engage with employment globally. Um, we always tell our international students since day one that they possess their international student superpowers.

They are multilingual, they are innovative, they're adaptable, they provide alternative perspectives to problem-solving, all of that. And we recommend them to leverage those superpowers when creating their application materials, preparing for interviews, or even thinking about their career trajectory down the road.

However, as we continue to discuss this so-called American standard, cultural differences, and ways to get out of your comfort zone to network and build your social capital, many international students often don't [00:14:00] even know where to start. Simply put, they don't know what they don't know. So when we talk about the American resume, the American way of networking, or the US hiring process, many times they don't know what you mean at all.

What do you mean they shouldn't be, there shouldn't be a photo on an American resume because almost the entire Europe asks for one when it comes to resume? What do you mean by having to look at people in the eye when talking to strangers to show politeness? That is not the norm in some countries. And what do you mean that a recruitment process takes about three to f- three to six months or even beyond, and recruitment starts perhaps nine months before for some industries and roles?

They just simply do not have enough context to work off of, and that's especially true for international students on the master's levels if they, especially when they have limited international experience. To me, I believe it's best for international students to have access to real-world examples, [00:15:00] because international students do learn best when they see examples and then are able to mimic and give it a try and experiment with it.

A good American resume or cover letter from a former international student in the same or similar major or field of study, case study of international alumni, actual example of conversation starters that they can practice on, or even a Really nice introductory email to connect them with someone. That is a great start, um, to just help set off, uh, set our international student off as a launchpad.

The essence of the first element of this framework to be a launchpad is strategic and intern- intentional resource sharing, but also cultivating a safe space, allowing for career exploration and growth. Esther, do you want to add? That's abs- absolutely true that students often come to our offices, come to our departments really seeking a touchpoint, [00:16:00] and they come initially because they don't know where to start.

Many feel really lost. They don't know what they want. What Vicky said, what they don't know is what they don't know. They sometimes have an idea of where they wanna go, and many think they know what they want, but are also unaware of the legal parameters that we also don't dictate, but are beholding to with, you know our government.

And so these are all pieces that students have to consider, and sometimes have creative avenues to, to enter into their fields of interest. Some students also come wanting to have transactional experiences. And in many parts of the world, I've come to realize, even in my own lecturing, that there are sometimes really clear steps and really efficient ways to doing things in other parts of the world.

For example, here in the States, you know, [00:17:00] small talk is a really big part of networking, and it's a process, and this may not be as important in other, other contexts. Here, networking can really lead to opportunities and information, and it's been my experience that students need to grow in their understanding of the career development process, that it, it is just that: a process, a journey, and that it's developmental, meaning it takes time, it takes reflection, and sometimes it takes pivoting.

In order to be in the context you hope to grow in, knowing that it's a process is really more than half the battle. That way you can manage your own expectations. And you know what? Things do take a lot longer in the US, unfortunately, and that is, uh in larger- largely in part due to the building of relationships and the connections, 'cause that's a huge factor, and that's a cultural norm here that many may, may be unfamiliar with.[00:18:00] 

Another thing that rears its head sometimes when I'm working with students is the topic of imposter syndrome. And this is some- something that we can help support students in, in terms of setting their own perspectives properly and their priorities in the right direction. Students are often looking to their left and to their right, and there's s- there's constant reminders to them that maybe that they're not good enough or they don't belong.

But as advisors, we have a huge part in reminding them that students, as, as Vicky said earlier, they have superpowers and come from strengths perspe- uh, come with strengths themselves. This is... It's not easy because it takes, again, time to reflect and also be confident in what you're strong in, and knowing that they do bring things to the table.

They wouldn't be here otherwise. And, you know, at my university, it's a constant battle. You know, im- imposter [00:19:00] syndrome, it really plagues the best of us at all levels, but it especially consumes those of us who are really high-performing, have perfectionist tendencies, and are used to really achieving top-level standards.

And that's why this leads to our second piece of the framework, being a bridge as an advisor, and this h- is to help students contextualize their landscape at their current university setting. Being a bridge, career development practitioners can act as connectors. We can help link culture, similarities, differences, manage expectations, help them understand and navigate systems, help them find resources to experiences, and to help and support understanding with adjustment and belonging.

The toughest parts of a career development journey can really be the communication pieces for an international student. [00:20:00] These expectations are not the same, you know, from their previous experiences likely, and so they can be limited in their knowledge. And giving students the space to cr- create questions without judgment, pose them without being sheepish, and asking them where they feel safe is really important.

Meeting students where they are and having their just diverse perspectives inform their future decisions is important to acknowledge, and that, you know, their upbringing, backgrounds, and language are diverse as well, regardless of what country they come from, just as it is really diverse here in the US as well.

Vicky, any thoughts on that additionally? Certainly. There are two aspects that I wanted to kinda elaborate and build off of what you have mentioned. First, the opportunity to meaningfully discuss [00:21:00] cultural differences seemed lacking in current career advising practices, at least in my opinion. We often think that it may be a job for some other offices that work, uh, with students on intercultural or multicultural affairs.

 And... But however, it is actually extremely important for us to also help address the aspects of cultural differences before we can meaningfully discuss careers that encapsulated their entire experience, not only in the university and campuses that they are in currently, but beyond even in workplaces.

When discussing cultural differences, unpacking results after they utilize tools, um, such as the Cultural Wizard within the GoinGlobal suite or the Country Comparison tool by the Culture Factor Group, would actually help them recognize the actual differences across cultures and assist them in reflecting on what could make them an even stronger candidate with the [00:22:00] contextualization to kinda give them an edge over their peers.

Secondly many of us as advisors in the career services offices or, honestly, even in academic advising, often think that international students are more likely to advisor shop, to meet with multiple advisors in the same office. Scheduling appointments with multiple of us for quote, unquote, "the same conversation," which may not be something preferable among us.

Um, and some may even call it unsustainable. However, as we think about a holistic support and creating a safe space for international students to, quote, unquote, "figure it out," scheduling appointment with different advisors may actually be their way of practicing networking. They are actually getting used to talking to strangers and seeking advice from peoples that may not know in order to [00:23:00] grow professionally.

While, yes, such practice may be frustrating, again, as a, as something that we see internally from the international practitioner aspect, however, when you think about it from an international student's perspective, they are taking our advice seriously to build their social capital gradually by meeting more people.

As a connector, as a bridge, we should really stay open-minded and welcoming, serving as a, again, connector to bridge either the skills gap through hands-on practices or the knowledge through meaningful conversation, unpacking some of their dilemmas or, challenges that they are experiencing, seeking ways to genuinely connect with students to meet their specific needs to establish a relational advising relationship.

Esther touched on this a little bit earlier, but this really speaks to the importance of prioritizing relational advising over transactional [00:24:00] advising, making sure that students are aware of the power of continuous engagement with career services throughout and beyond their time on each of our campuses, such that we could continue to help them see their strength, manage their realistic expectations, and really challenge them to establish a growth mindset along the way.

This is a perfect segue to transition to the last role within our framework, how can career development practitioners be a coach? I'll transition and pivot it over to Esther to add to this. The final piece of the framework is to be a coach. And as a certified career and executive leadership coach myself, having a coaching mindset and model for career practitioners, career development practitioners, really it will allow students to be guided through both challenges and support systems.[00:25:00] 

This allows them to strengthen their identity, their resilience, their agency, and also their own career self-efficacy. The aspect of coaching that allows students to be in continual growth, as Vicky mentioned earlier, it's not just one and done conversations, but it's really continual touch points. And one thing to think about as career development practitioners, are our career centers set up for this volume or for this need?

Coaching really is a creative thought partnership with which goals and action plans are created. If that is the case, how are career centers at our university set up to accommodate this need, and how can our centers move toward this model?

Any thoughts, Vicky, on the models and how we can plant seeds for continuous engagement? I often think that it comes in our day-to-day advising [00:26:00] practices. It could be as simple as when we meet with students in one-on-one settings or even small group settings, work with them on goal setting and next steps.

What are some things, actionable steps that they could take in the coming week or two or in three weeks that they could actually do something about their question and grow that way before scheduling a follow-up appointment with us? Um, a lot of the times we have found that international students need a little bit of a nudging in order to take the first step because they are not quite used to a very decentralized university and c- college system.

And so having them taking the initiative to schedule a follow-up appointment or even initial appointment is already a big step. If they find that in our conversation we are able to support them in goal setting, in setting in, in setting some of the actionable steps, they could gradually get to growing [00:27:00] professionally on their career development journey.

Just like what Esther mentioned, recognizing that this is a developmental process and journey, that is already a good way to, to start with. Oftentimes if you have the resource to block off some time in your calendar two weeks after an appointment just to send a follow-up email, a check-in, those really goes a long way.

And a lot of advisors think that, "Oh, you mentioned resource sharing and bridging cultural differences. Does it mean that I'm gonna send out a laundry list or follow-up email? Would that be sufficient?" Uh, while they do like to see things that recap what you have mentioned during an appointment due to mostly language barriers, and they could revisit if they have things that they'd missed or misunderstood they don't like to be dumped with resources either.

How are you going to unpack it and contextualize it in a way where these are your options to explore. I challenge you to [00:28:00] pick two to three out of this list to explore in the next two weeks, and then we can meet again in two to three weeks to chat through that. Um, in those case, planting the seed, recognizing that we are a partner.

We are here to support you, and you can come back to us whenever you can so that we can continue to grow together. I think that's the in- important aspect of being a coach and really giving international students the ability to recognize that, "Oh, well- A one-time appointment wouldn't fix anything. I need to put in work as well, but I know that I have a cheerleader right behind my back to cheer me on and work with me together, um, on this journey, regardless of how long I'll be on this campus and even beyond.

I will still have people at my back to, to cheer me on through LinkedIn connections, through coming back to campus to, to serve as an alumni panel, all of that. I think it's just really the [00:29:00] importance of planting the seeds early on and curating that culture of partnership and collaboration.

Those are some great insights, guys. Thank you so much for sharing, uh, uh, this information. Thank you for putting all the time and effort into creating this framework. Uh, you know, for me, when I was listening to you, I thought how often we're so busy, uh, in appointments and workshops and, you know, just everything going on.

Sometimes as a, a career development professionals, you can't see the forest for the trees you know, because you're, you're looking at what's in front of you and trying to take care of that. And, uh, I know that, you know, most of the listeners, of course, are probably all fully staffed and fully funded career services departments.

Uh, but for those of us who aren't, uh, having a framework like this can really, really help us take care of more students effectively, uh, when you frame it this [00:30:00] way and you're not just looking at individual transactions. So this is really great. I really appreciate, uh, all the work that you've put into this.

Uh, I'm excited to look into how I can incorporate this into my work with students. Would you like to share any final thoughts before we, um, say goodbye to our listeners? Certainly. And I think a lot of the times we think that once a framework is implemented, once we wanna transform and change people's life, we change lives altogether.

But really, our work is we change one life every day. You start small, and I could not emphasize enough the importance of contextualization for international students. We have to help paint a picture for them regarding the US context of everything career related. Provide them with real-world examples.

Personally connect them with someone that they may find [00:31:00] useful to talk to instead of just referring them to, "Use this platform. Find someone," obviously, if you could, if you know someone. Provide them some pointers in terms of what professional association or student organization that they could get involved in to, to gain leadership experience or seek mentorship outside of a campus setting.

 And possibly even discuss the flexibility of a US higher education system, and then refer them to their academic advisors, because a lot of the times international students don't really realize that they could pursue minors, micro-credentials, certificates, or even double major, double degree, other creditable certifications while they're pursuing their degree without paying extra.

And sometimes perhaps planting a seed, again, would help them, challenge them to think beyond the box and be like, "Oh, I'm interested in marketing, but then I'm an MBA student. What can I do about it?" Have you thought about specialization? Have you thought about a minor? Um, all of that, I think those are things that perhaps we could help, [00:32:00] um, challenge their thinking a little bit and provide them the support to, to rethink what could be most beneficial to their career development journey.

Again, going back to how we came about with this framework, a lot of the times international students really don't know what they don't know. And so oftentimes they rely on you to provide them with some new ideas or perspectives to think beyond their little bubble. So start small, little nudge, little conversation, little new idea that you don't think is groundbreaking may actually be groundbreaking and life-changing to them.

 And those really goes a long way, um, in getting students to think beyond and maximize their potential seeking the clarity that they need in, in their career journey really, and be successful down the road. Esther?

My final takeaways, I would say, really tie back to the very first thing I mentioned, [00:33:00] is the whole cultural humility piece. As career development practitioners, this is something that we can also practice too, in that we don't know everything. We don't know everything about every student that walks through our offices, and it takes time.

It takes time to develop these relationships. And in my work with students, especially in the global setting, students really appreciate challenges and different perspectives, but also the recognition that things are not what they've been acclimated or socialized to do. They're willing to try these new things in supportive and safe spaces And while we do need to manage expectations of students sometimes within the parameters of legal or opportunity, you know, our jobs as CDPs, career development practitioners, are really essentially to empower students to own their journey, and that [00:34:00] takes cultural humility on our part.

Thank you.

Thank you both again for allowing me to be a part of this conversation. Uh, I, I'm honored that, uh, uh, you thought of me. Uh, a big thank you to Melissa Venable and the NCDA for giving us this platform for Esther and Vicky to share, uh, their framework.

 Thanks again to Daniel, Esther, and Vicky for being here and bringing this conversation to NCDA listeners. Please be sure to check the episode notes for more resources and more information about today's topic.

Thanks so much.