Career Practitioner Conversations with NCDA

Beyond Green Jobs: Applying Sustainability and Climate Justice Issues to Career Development Practice

• Season 5 • Episode 17

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Dr. Mike Stebleton hosts, Nicole “Nicki” May, and Dr. Candy Ho in this episode about integrating sustainability and climate justice into career development. Stebleton cites 2023 data that 81% of U.S. college students worry about climate change, framing eco-anxiety as a career issue. The conversation includes a definition of sustainability as meeting present needs without harming future generations (including seven-generation thinking) and climate justice as addressing unequal climate impacts. 

Michael J. Stebleton, PhD, is a Professor of Higher Education at University of Minnesota-Twin Cities. He teaches both undergraduates and graduate students in the Department of Organizational, Leadership, Policy, and Development. 

Nicole L. May is a PhD candidate, instructional designer, and adjunct instructor in the College of Education and Human Development at the University of Minnesota Twin Cities. Her research centers around higher education’s responses to the climate crisis and sustainability leadership. 

Dr. Candy Ho is an internationally recognized career development scholar, keynote speaker, and author. She is the author of Discovering Careers and is currently writing two books on green workforce transformation and higher education leadership. As Chancellor’s Chair at Kwantlen Polytechnic University, she works with K-12 educators to integrate the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals into meaningful learning experiences.

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National Career Development Association

Career Practitioner Conversations

Beyond Green Jobs: Applying Sustainability and Climate Justice to Career Development Practice

April 22, 2026

[00:00:00] Welcome to the podcast. I'm Melissa Venable, NCDA, director of Professional Development, and we are all in for a treat with this episode focused on sustainability in the context of career development. I'm here again with Dr. Mike Stebleton and he is joined by Nicole May. And Dr. Candy Ho, it is a true pleasure to have the three of you here.

Thank you so much for bringing this conversation to the NCDA podcast. Great. Thank you, Melissa for that warm welcome and welcome, uh, Nicki May and Dr. Candy Ho to our episode. I also wanna welcome other, uh, listeners in the career development audience who might be interested in this topic. Um, we're loosely calling our title today Beyond Green Jobs, applying Sustainability and Climate Justice Issues to Career Development Practice, and we've invited two.

 Scholars and, , practitioners of career development and higher education in [00:01:00] particular to share some of their ideas projects and perspectives around, , this important topic. And so, as Melissa mentioned, my name is, um, Mike Stebleton. I'm a professor of higher education at the University of Minnesota Twin Cities.

, A lot of my research and work is around career development and college students, um, as well as counselor education. And so it's a pleasure for me to join the, the three of you here. In this discussion And, , before we hear from each of the speakers, Nicki and Candy, I wanna share a statistic, uh, with you that came from a inside higher ed and College Pulse report.

This is a higher education venue that, uh, surveys college presidents, administrators, and other leaders in higher ed spaces. And they found that approximately 81% of US college students reported being very worried or somewhat worried about climate change. This was in [00:02:00] 2023, and of course candy you represent Canada.

And I would imagine that Canadian college students would have similar concerns around climate related issues. And of course, this is just one population, higher ed career conversations as covers a wider audience. But I wanted to start there. With just some context of, of college students having some eco anxiety around climate and climate issues.

And so with that, um, I'd like each of you to introduce, uh, yourself. Maybe we'll start with Nicki and, tell us a little bit about who you are and how you came to this topic and, and maybe why it's relevant to you. Thank you. Yeah, thank you. Uh, my name is, uh, Nicole, or Nicki May and I'm also at the University of Minnesota Twin Cities.

I'm a PhD student working with, , Dr. Stebleton , But before my time at the university, I have about 20 years of experience in [00:03:00] education. So I was a K 12 teacher for 14 years before moving into higher ed. And you know, I think in that space I really was interested in how students and young people wrestle with.

The big problems that society faces for two reasons. One was that I just found that those topics tended to be really engaging for students, especially students who maybe aren't engaged in sort of the more traditional like rote aspects of education. And then also because I saw how environmental impacts really impacted my students.

Um, I taught in Mexico, in New York City and in Minnesota, and very different geographies, obviously at those places. But in all cases I really found that the external environment around students really impacted their ability to learn [00:04:00] what they wanted to do with their lives, kind of how they saw the world.

And so bringing those that, those experiences into my PhD work and moving into this scholarship space, I was really interested in how climate issues and sustainability in general get incorporated into higher education and into our organizations and systems. So I think great. Yeah, it's kind of, plus I really like being a Jill of all trades, if you will.

Uh, so it's fun to be able to kind of combine different things that I'm interested in in different ways. Excellent. Yeah. Thank you Nicki. And of course, some of your, um, doctoral dissertation work is gonna be on this topic. And I wanna make sure we return to that later on in our discussion. Um, candy, would you like to go next, please?

Sure. Nicki, first of all, I love the Jill [00:05:00] of all trades model because I think that's what we all have to do as career development professionals and, , it's so inspiring to hear your, your origin story. Um, mine is slightly embarrassing and I'll start off with a confession here. And, um I'm currently a, uh, researcher and a faculty member at Quant and Polytechnic University.

And in 2019, my university had this wonderful idea to have an open pedagogy program for faculty members that ties into the United Nations sustainable development goals. Nothing embarrassing about that except when I first saw the email, I thought to myself, oh. Sustainable development. That's, that, that's for the science people.

And I'm situated within the faculty of Arts and Humanities and in education. So I didn't think much of it until thank goodness. My good friend was the coordinator overseeing this program. And he said, [00:06:00] you need to apply. And I sat down with him. And by the end of the 20 minutes that we had together, I was so happy to be wrong because I then I saw it, I saw the possibilities that the 17 sustainable development goals ranging from zero hunger, um.

 No poverty re reduce inequalities, peace, justice, and strong institutions. And of course, climate action. They're all related into the faucets of career development and everything that we do. Up until that point I was, and I'm still teaching this dream course, this capstone course for senior students who are exiting the university and their undergrads going into the world.

And in that class it's always been, you know what? I would like to use this course towards writing my. Sch my grad school application or I'm applying to law school. I'm applying to become a doctor. I'm applying for these jobs. So [00:07:00] whatever students come in with their opportunities, this course helps them work on those possibilities.

And once I learned to embed the SDGs into the course, it doesn't, it, it, no, it expands beyond what I want to do when I'm done school. It's what problems are out there that I believe I can help solve with my talents. With my skills and experience, where are the gaps? What else do I have to learn and how do I go from there?

So that was the origin story. And then part two, which I know we'll dive, dive on onto it later, so I'll I'll make it brief, is, um, I managed to secure a three year funding, um, from my school as a chancellor's chair award recipient to bring that into K to 12 educators. So right now I'm on a three year project helping educators integrate the sustainable development goals into their curriculum.

 Looking beyond career development, we've got [00:08:00] career educators as well, but, um, it's now ranged from kindergarten teachers, social studies teachers that are teaching middle school all the way to, um, high school grade 12 educators that are working on embedding the SDGs together in my province of British Columbia, Canada.

E excellent candy. Thank you. And thank you, Nicki. I knew there was a reason why we connected the two of you on this episode. You both have a passion for K through 12 education, uh, but also higher, higher ed, and how this impacts our, our college students. So thank you for your, your introductions and, um, I wanna make sure that both of you have a chance to talk about some of your ongoing projects, um, that you're currently working on related to these issues.

Um, what I'd like to do before we get too far into our discussion is maybe, um, start with some definitions. Um, some of our listeners might be new to this field and some of these terms might be novel. And so I just want to get both of your input, uh, regarding definitions of [00:09:00] how do you view or how do you define climate justice or environmental justice, right?

We see those terms used sometimes interchangeably, but also, uh, sustainability. I know Ken, you talked about, you know, the UN sustainable development and probably don't have time to list all 17 of those important objectives and goals. But maybe we'll start with candy and then, and then go to, to Nicki, but how do you make sense or how do you define some of these terms?

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I, I think a lot of the extra readings will be in the show notes. So thank you, Mike. Thank you, Melissa for coordinating that. The def I, I followed the traditional definition of sustainability and it comes from the 1987 report when we first start talking about what that means for our society.

Um, and it's the idea that we. In our current generation, are using the resources that are assigned or are available to us without compromising [00:10:00] the resources available for futures. And in recent years because part of my ongoing journey to Indigenize my curriculum and career development, I've been working with, um, elders and, and people who have a lot more knowledge than I ever would be.

Uh, as a settler, I've also come to learn that, um, the idea of sustainability ties back to the seven generation. So it's the idea that we've got, you know, in my generation right now, I am here today because I've got the last, the past seven generations looking out for me in the world that they paved, they billed for us today.

And so I also have a role and responsibility to give back and to think ahead, not just beyond my 8-year-old, but beyond the next. Sixth generation and so on. So it's the idea of, um, taking care of the world, taking care of your, your neighbors and the people within your communities. And I think it ties to climate [00:11:00] justice as well.

The word justice itself is righting the wrongs. And, and what does that mean in the context of climate is that we see the climate issues that are happening around the world, they impact countries, individuals very differently with the skew towards the underserved population being impact a lot more.

So what can everybody's citizens of the the earth, what can we do? What do we need to individually and collectively do to right those wrong so that we're not leaving anybody behind. Thank you Candy. Nicki, what else would you add to those definitions, maybe based on some of your work on these important topics?

Yeah, I think, yeah, I, I, I'm also familiar with the brentland report definition, and I definitely think that's kind of the, the baseline for sustainability for that term. There are also many populations or folks who contest the term [00:12:00] sustainability, especially the idea of sustainable development.

It can feel like a bit of an oxymoron if we're talking about, if we're still talking about kind of unimpeded growth and trying to make that sustainable on a finite planet. And so I think a lot about balance when I think about sustainability. And I think when I think about sustainability with the climate crisis or climate issues, I sort of think about sustainability as almost like an umbrella term.

And then climate issues are a piece of that. I think a lot of our, a lot of our modern challenges or wicked problems stem from similar causes of extraction of kind of lack of care. And so sustainability, I think in the best case scenario is the flip side of that is, is incorporating the care, the balance, the thinking longer term.

 [00:13:00] Another term that I see come up related more to what you started with Mike, which was the, that idea of like eco anxiety or that deep concern for. The planet and what's happening with our physical environment. Um, there's a lot of kind of related terms popping up in that space. Eco and anxiety and kind of the, the social emotional pieces of that is a relatively new field.

And so you see a lot of terms popping up. Things like, like, so nostalgia is, um, mm-hmm I think a great word, which, uh, relates to this idea of, of feeling feelings of grief or loss related to a physical place. So that nostalgia for maybe for a swimming hole you used to visit as a kid that's no longer safe to swim in or doesn't have water because of droughts.

 Those sort of geographical [00:14:00] changes that can affect humans emotionally. And so I think all these key terms. Are can be a lot to keep track of. Um, but I appreciate the types of conversations that they open up because I think that, um, you know, talking about whether it's an environmental problem or poverty or, or hunger or some of the other problems that the SDGs try to address, I think that sometimes the social emotional piece isn't, isn't as much of a focus.

It can be focused a lot on policy or focused a lot on technical solutions. Um, and it's really, when I think about sustainability, I think about like the three pillars as well. So the three pillars of sustainability is the economic, the social, and the environmental. So those things working together. Great, thank you.

Yeah, I think that context is, is really helpful and it, I think it's indicative of just the impact that we can [00:15:00] have on these different areas, the three pillars and Nicki's example there, but also candy, when you define the UN sustainable development goals those are 17, you know, specific goals, but yet overlapping too, right?

In terms of their objectives and who they, uh, aim to serve. I also wanna talk a little bit about these terms, you know, in particular, climate justice as it relates to social justice and the origins of our field, right? Of, of career development. And I think many listeners might know of the early work of Frank Parsons and the progressive movement of the early 19 hundreds.

And the foundational work of our profession was built on some of these ideals, right? Caring for others, serving to support others in transition new to the country or new to, different learning context. And some of us have written about this idea of kind of returning to our roots as a profession and I think [00:16:00] climate justice falls potentially under that umbrella.

 And I was wondering candy, if you could maybe say a few words about that. I know you've written about this in, in some of your, your most recent work that will highlight in the notes and, and later in our discussion. But can you say a little bit more? 'cause there might be some career development people that say, well, yes, this is important, but I really don't see my role of that being a social justice advocate.

 I, there's, I think there's maybe a growing number of people that do align themselves. This idea of getting into good trouble by our late congressman, um, John Lewis, you know, kind of moving towards good trouble and, and looking for ways to. To get in the way and to nudge others by supporting them.

I, I'm just wondering what your, your take on that might be candy and, and how this idea of climate justice might relate to some of the larger ideals of our profession. Yeah. I really [00:17:00] appreciate you taking us back in time to look at the origins of why we do what we do which is ultimately helping people live well in their places, right?

Yeah. We talked about the emotional aspect of of, you know, eco anxiety and, and it worries me that there is. There, you know, we, we've got a, a, an amazing profession here, and I think career development has always been about helping people navigate the navigate, change, navigate their lives.

And I think climate change simply is what makes that navigation more urgent and more complex. We're seeing the impact no matter where we go. And so in my classrooms, I, I have students that are already asking questions about, you know I, I feel grief in the way the [00:18:00] world is going right now.

And I feel helpless, um, when I believe that I'm one person trying to make a difference. So to me, these are really deep conversations. Yes. And these are career development conversations because we're talking about what does that mean for them when they can no longer you. Go to the swimming pool that was there when, when they were little, what's their, what's their contribution and what impact can they make to make a difference?

 Whether it is as aspiring future professionals at work or, you know, some of them are already doing some of this at, at work or in their personal lives. So I think back to the idea of career as a constellation of life roles. So that's Sonny Hanson, that's Donald Super, that's Mark Vicki, that's Chris Magnusson.

 You know, and, and how do we activate, how do we help them activate the skills, the learnings, the attributes that they have in their various life roles [00:19:00] to come together to work towards climate action in a way that is coherent to them. And so like we're now, it becomes a conversation about life role, values alignment.

And it's our responsibility as career development professionals to take these questions and curiosity seriously. Because I think at this point, I, I know it's been over set that every single job can be a green job, but I, I think the work that we do contributing towards sustainability it's central to the work that we do.

And that brings me to the last layer here is, yeah, I think the concern about that career practitioners sometimes bring forth is like I'm not sure where I fit into this, this conversation about climate and sustainability. And I would encourage you to, to look around the world that you're living in and find that connection for yourself.

 And see how you make meaning and connection out of it. Because when you [00:20:00] personalize something that's meaningful for you, then it helps you amplify that work the work that you bring in, the way that you help your clients that much more. Yeah, thank you Candy. And I appreciated your, your definition of, uh, career, right?

Being a constellation of paid and unpaid, uh, life roles, right. Over the course of one's lifetime. And I think I'm teaching a career development course, uh, this, this, uh, semester for my graduate students, and I keep reiterating that, right? 'cause so often we think of career as being just paid work, but clearly it's a, it's this combination or constellation of, of life roles.

 Tristan Huley, who I think some of you know defines career as how we spend our time, right? And I, I love that definition so much, right? Because hopefully our paid work is just one small slice of these rich full lives that, that we have. And some of these non-paid roles are, are. Hopefully clearly more [00:21:00] important.

 And, and being good stewards of our planet and our environment and engaging in social justice causes or climate justice causes in this case, hopefully it falls under that. More broad definition of how we look at career. Nicki, do you wanna add anything to that? Maybe based on some of your own experiences as, as an educator or how you might see educators playing a role in social justice causes?

Yeah, for sure. Candy, you know, you brought up that idea of you know, all jobs can be climate jobs, right? And I think about you know, really helping students or clients think outside of the box, um, when it comes to how they might contribute to some of these issues, whether it's climate or another social justice issue or something that they care about that might not be directly [00:22:00] related to whatever their job title is, for example.

 And so I think I've had an interesting sort of personal journey with that recently. My day job in higher education is as an instructional designer, so I'm like an academic technology support. Professional, um, at the moment. And that isn't directly tied to sustainability. It's not directly tied to kind of career development and other things I really care about.

And so I've just sort of gotten creative about how I can, can work these things in and I think maybe my experience could be useful for others to hear. So working for a large organization like the University of Minnesota, I've been able to join the sustainability committee for my campus. And luckily that group is really open to people in all different roles and I was able to get involved there.

[00:23:00] And then I'm sure folks who have been on different committees know, like, you get tied in with different people that maybe you wouldn't have met otherwise. And that can take you down different paths. I also am technically in the IT job family right now. And so being able to bring some of these conversations into it where I wasn't really hearing them before, and sometimes even just connecting people, like someone I met in the sustainability office let me introduce you to this person I know in IT and, and we can talk about this new data center that needs to get built on campus and how's that going to work and what are some of the sustainability implications of this.

 And so I think what is really rewarding about that is, is being able to kind of stretch these muscles and like use these different skills that maybe just if I was just staying in my lane as an instructional designer, I might not use as much. But [00:24:00] that it's still, you know, within the purview of what I'm doing with my employer.

And able to, to kind of be that bridge and be that person that's bringing up the conversation. You know, and I think any role you can really do that, because if you start, I, I've heard sustainability described as more of a lens than a destination. And if you start applying that sustainability lens in your day-to-day life, you start to see opportunities for for reducing, for caring more, for reusing, you know, the different different actions that you can take to kind of lessen your impact on the planet and think more about those future generations.

So those are some ideas. That's great. And, and thank you for sharing Nicki, some of your own forms of involvement across campus. Um, we talk about different life roles and I'm always amazed at how many roles that some of my own graduate students like [00:25:00] you are playing and managing to keep, keep all the, the balls in the air at the same time.

Or, or maybe that's just the appearance that, that you're giving. But, um, I wanted to talk a little bit about kind of this idea of career development professionals and how they balance their work scope. Right? And there might be some individuals listening to this now and thinking, well, I've got so much going on.

There's a lot on my plate. And I'm not sure if I see myself as a. A social justice advocate. Right. Given the kind of overview that we've just provided as way of contacts, Nicki and I are both, uh, in Minneapolis right now, Minneapolis, Minnesota here in the States, and there's a lot going on if you've been following the news, international news, and a lot of us are just trying to survive day to day and, and support our students, um, let alone tackle climate issues and, um, environmental concerns.

And so I'm just wondering as maybe we'll start with Nicki, is maybe talk a [00:26:00] little bit about why it's essential right now, despite all these challenges, to still think about how we might integrate the climate crisis and the SDGs into, into career development work now. Like maybe describe the urgency despite some of these challenges.

Yeah. Well I think on sort of like the micro level, I see the, the sort of through line as. The need for adaptability in whatever role you have in the any given moment. And I think the reality is that there will be more and more instability, whether it's political, like we're experiencing Minnesota right now, or related to natural disasters or other sort of climate related things.

That adaptability piece is huge and I think that's a skillset we can help our students or clients [00:27:00] develop and figure out what their resources are for resiliency. So whether that's tapping into networks or leaning on practices that someone might have to help kind of shore themselves up for challenges that will come up inevitably.

You know, we are long past the days of like, I'm gonna start in one job. With one company and retire from a similar job at that same company. Right. That, yeah, that's long gone. And so you know, adaptability and resilience I think are kind of huge skills to develop and and continue developing throughout your work life.

And and then I think kind of on a, on a bigger level, like if I zoom out a bit, I think about [00:28:00] the instability that we're experiencing in Minnesota right now is related to immigration and one of the big kind of social impacts potentially for climate, the climate crisis will be climate refugees and forced migration due to environmental instability.

 Water resource issues, things like that. And so I think when I think on that level is when I start to feel more of that urgency of like we, we as the collective need to do better and need to create systems that are ready for this sort of more movement of peoples than maybe has happened in the past.

And thinking about how, like that's what gives me energy to kind of keep engaging with these topics, even during times [00:29:00] that where other needs are more immediate, address those immediate needs. But then also trying to still think about, okay, but how can I make, potentially make a larger impact and help us be ready for, for future needs.

Yeah. Thank you, candy. What else would you add to that? Why? Why is this essential right now to be thinking about, in your case, the SDGs and, and integrating it specifically into career development work? Mm-hmm. Um. I really appreciate, Nicki, everything that you've said, and maybe what I can add is something that is more fundamental and foundational, and that is SDG number eight is decent work and e economic growth.

And I think at the very least, every single career development professional around the world needs to see themselves advancing decent work. And I think, you know, we sit at a really powerful intersection between working with [00:30:00] clients one-on-one, facilitating workshops, maybe something bigger, and institutions, and by that I, I don't just mean universities and colleges, but some government and policy makers, because we get to hear what's going on in the day-to-day lives of the people that we serve.

We we see trends in both hiring or even the, the statistic, Mike, that you mentioned at the very beginning that students are anxious. About their future. They're anxious about the environment. And so it gives us a powerful platform to be able to, to advocate and to say, here are what we're seeing and hearing.

 And we need to do better in order to better serve our clients and, and students when it comes to anything that's environmentally related. So I think there is like, why integrate us now? I, I think it has to be now because we have to make it our business. I also wanna acknowledge that there is a [00:31:00] lot of work to do for us to do on a day-to-day basis.

We feel overwhelmed. I don't know about you, I feel overwhelmed. There's so much happening around the globe, right? But we need to also acknowledge that that climate disruption is already reshaping labor markets. Many of the things that Nicki is talking about industries are, are transitioning or they, they need to.

 And so with our students. I've got many that are using my office hours asking are my degree still relevant? Why am I still investing in my education? Right? So we have big existential conversations that are happening here, and I think what we can offer as career development professionals is where's your agency in this?

And help them find that. Earlier in this podcast, we talked about adaptability. So a hundred percent in agreement in looking, you know, looking at their individual situation. And like I don't I like I'm of the mindset that we [00:32:00] cannot. We can no longer avoid this topic because if we wait for it further, it's gonna re, it's gonna induce more anxiety instead.

Mm-hmm. And throwing another theory here, hope, action, right? Hope is generated when we take action so it becomes an upward spiral. We're not, you know, saying you need to go out there and change the world, students and clients, but what is something that you can do today, this week that's going to make a difference?

Maybe it's writing a letter to your local politicians. Maybe it's speaking up at your, um, if your parent at your PPA meeting, like what can you, um, as a human being do to make a difference? Then take another step. Then take another step. Because can you imagine that if every single one of us people listening, wonderful listeners of this podcast, if we all do one thing it leads to collective action and it gets amplified.

Yeah. Thank you, uh, both of you. And can you mentioned. [00:33:00] This idea of adaptability, right? As being a, a key trait, um, as we work with our students to prepare for an uncertain world of work. Um, Nicki, you mentioned that, you know, the, the days of being employed by, you know, one company or one employer and sort of climbing the ladder, right?

Getting promoted every few years and, and then retiring with that same organization. Those days are probably long gone. Some of the statistics that I see and, and share with my students is that many of us might have 70 year work lives, right? So like a kindergartner today might live to be over a hundred years old.

And I always joke, I'm not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing. I'm not sure if I want to live to be 105, but it might happen, right? With technology and healthcare advances. And so what that means is that individuals will be cycling in and out of different work, both paid in unpaid roles for, for 70 plus years.

And so. [00:34:00] Um, ironically though, when you ask today's current students would they like to work for an organization? I think this was a study that came outta Canada. When I heard at Connexus last month, something like 51% said that they would love to work with the same organization if they could. Um, so there's sort of a, kind of a paradoxical, uh, scenario going on there.

But my question for, for you, candy, and then we'll hear from Nicki as well, is if, if we can agree that adaptability is important, an important lifelong skill over the course of this lifetime of our students, how can we coach for adaptability so students can pivot when there are certain environmental or global shifts that disrupt their industries, right?

And then maybe they're, they're nudged or forced out of their current work scenario into, into a new context. So how do, how do we coach for that agility or adaptability? First of all, if I can go back to that, um, Connexus statistic. I heard it too, Mike, and I was thinking to [00:35:00] myself really? So like, it, it, it's one of those things where I'm like, okay, it's, it's, um, good to know.

Like they've indicated that they would like to work for the same employer. That's where I'm like, okay, I, we need more data. We need qualitative research on like the whys. And then is is reality going to be the same or different? Like when they find themselves being offered the.

Same opportunity with the same employer. It's, are they going to take action? And I think there's a big part of conversations around, maybe it's about role and, and restructuring and employer engagement as well. So, uh, that's another podcast for another time. But, um, going back to that question about adaptability I've dived into the, the literature on the competencies.

For education, for sustainable development. And I think we need to make better connections in the career development realm with, um, these [00:36:00] competencies, which are not, should not be surprising. So, you know, looking beyond technical skills in enhancing adaptability, we also need to think. Systems thinking.

So when, when I talk about that in my classes you know, it's about helping students understand that their careers, they don't exist in isolation. They sit inside economic systems, policies, environments, and social systems. So it goes back to that question we talked about earlier. It's not about what job do you want, but how does this role interact within the larger systems?

What's my role and responsibility that comes into it? And then there's also transferable competency. So portable skills that allow people to, you know, pivot when industry shift as well. And what needs to happen is the reflection that individual students and client need to have when they move from one job to another.

What am I bringing to the next [00:37:00] opportunity that's gonna allow me to. Be successful. That in itself is very much adaptability. And then I, I really like this one. I'm seeing more and more of, um the term here, narrative agility. Well, what what, what is that? So I, I, I, I looked it up. So it's the ability to interpret your story as the context change as well.

So it's the idea that yes, we've got our goals and aspirations, we've got that one story, and we also need to pay attention when the environment changes. So, um, maybe what you are trained, as a middle age uh, you know, job seeker is no longer relevant because it might have been replaced by technology.

So what are some of the things, including your values, things that um, are really important to you? Priorities. Skills that are still, um, that, that are still evergreen versus things that you need to change in the midst of [00:38:00] economic downturns, climate shifts and, and layoffs. So, um, I often say in my class, you're writing.

Individual chapters when you face, you know, when you're facing dilemmas like that, it's an individual chapter. Not the whole book you're writing, but when you look back to your life, that's the book that you're writing. And then the last two I'll say is, um, you know, staying curious, being comfortable with experimentation.

Because a big part of adaptability is doing mini experiments that are out there. Conducting information, interviews, looking at small pilot projects, and then testing your interest before fully committing. And then being willing to say, you know what? I tried it, that's not for me. I'm gonna move on to something else.

But learning was not lost because I learned about myself and what I don't wanna do. Right. That's why we've got internships and co-op programs. And then the last one with, um, values-based decision [00:39:00] making. I feel like I'm preaching to the choirs co choir here, but it's about, you know, still under.

Standing in the midst of all of these changes, what still matters to them? Um, what impact are they hoping to have? Now? Yeah. Excellent. Um, two comments that I want to hear from Nicki on this same question. I love this idea of narrative agility, right? And I think that could fall under this whole sort of emerging area around narrative career development and narrative career competency skills.

This idea and sentiment about being able to tell and retell your stories, right as you progress through different roles and different work opportunities. And I, I love that idea of, of each episode or each event or occurrence, almost serving as a, a chapter, right? In this, this book that you're, you're creating.

The second point, I like this idea of staying curious and trying these mini experiments. IBER a talks about this idea of, of flirting, right? [00:40:00] Flirting with possibilities and crafting experiments to see what what you like and what you don't like. And then oftentimes you, you learn best from what you don't like.

 I'd like to remind my students of that if something doesn't quite work out, it's not a failure. It's collecting data, right? And you collect data to find out that it's maybe not gonna hit for you, right? And then you pivot and try something else. So with that, Nicki, um, any other thoughts that you had about sort of this adaptability right?

And how we coach for adaptability? Uh, either with other educators or other students in post-secondary context? Yeah. Other insights you might have there. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, can you hit on everything? Like the two main things that came to my mind were the competencies and this idea, I had not heard the term narrative agility, but the language came to my mind.

So I, I think just to add onto that a little bit, would [00:41:00] be something I notice with students is sometimes they'll have these, like they'll know these competencies and they'll know that they have developed them, but they won't necessarily be able to pinpoint a specific example or a specific instance of that piece.

And I think again, from my perspective, I think that, uh, especially if we're talking about paid work, like employers often wanna see those examples, those like concrete. Okay. How did you, how did you show systems thinking? How did you show problem solving? And so what I find working with students often.

Is that I help them connect those dots and like build that lens of being able to say, oh yeah, that was an example of this. And so, um, I think helping like con make that more concrete for the person in the individual and then whoever they're trying to share that story with can [00:42:00] be helpful. Yeah.

Thank you. And I think this idea of moving into practice, maybe I'll, I'll transition us into some strategies. And how we might work and advise career development practitioners to maybe embed some of these ideals and practices into our, our work with with students. So, Nicki, I'm gonna, I'm gonna start with you for this, this next question.

So, um, you're both based in higher ed, although you also have both experiences in K through 12, but as we know higher ed is often criticized or critiqued for being overly siloed. Uh, even though most of our pressing global challenges are not limited to one discipline, right? Imagine higher ed being critiqued.

What's, where do we start, right? That's a whole nother episode. So my question though is, you know, how can career development offices and and professionals within those offices help break down some of these silos across campus? So that, say, [00:43:00] a, a design student or an environmental architect. Major and a business student might equally feel responsible for some of these sustainable, uh, efforts regarding our future.

Do you wanna start with that, Nicki? And then what? Just an easy question for you to, to break down here. Yeah. No, I can answer this in a couple seconds. Oh, pressure. Yeah. Well actually Candy, one of your kind of opening story about how you came to look at the SDGs and incorporate them into your work, I feel like is an example of this and ties into as well with what I'm doing for my PhD research.

So I, what I am seeing in the literature and hoping to explore more is this idea that sustainability happens through relationships very often because it's really unusual in higher ed or anywhere else that a sustainability professional. Is given the [00:44:00] resources that they need and the the kind of, um what's it called?

Like the stick, I don't know, like the influence. The influence. They need to really do the work that they're tasked with doing. And so oftentimes they end up doing work by building networks and connecting with people. And I think that candy, you had that example with incorporating the SDGs into your course and at, at first glance, not seeing that connection and, but talking with somebody helped you, um, get there.

And I think that career development professionals can do something similar in their roles because you're often interfacing with, with students, with faculty, with other staff members, with other student support. Kind of roles and how do you, again, how do you kind of bring up those conversations [00:45:00] and and bring people together that might not have otherwise connected.

 And I think that can happen in an academic space, like in higher ed, working on projects across departments can be really fun and exciting and, and help, help everybody involved think in a different way. But I also think that with, um, employer connections, for example the business school might have a really good relationship with a particular employer, but there might if you can kind of build that relationship with that person, they might help make that connection of like, oh, this employer that I always work with, I think actually like a social work major would be great for this type of role that they're looking for.

Right. And so building more of those networks and connections across the silos can, I think, really help. Yeah, I like that idea of looking across disciplines for points of collaboration and [00:46:00] connection candy. What else would you add to that in terms of breaking down some of these kind of structured, uh, silos in higher ed and how do we get people to work together?

Yeah, Nicki, I really appreciate that point about, you know, influence and relationship. And if it weren't for the coordinator Dr. Rajiv, Jen Gani taking the time to speak with me, and we have a great friendship. You know trust is important and I think part of it is role modeling. The, the work that I'll add to it when people see the work that you're doing, the impact and the results that you're, you're creating.

 I often have found that, um, when I make those pitches, when I invite people to come along, it makes for an easier invitation. So I think the lesson here for career centers, career offices is that they serve all faculties, which is phenomenal, and I love using the analogy of cross pollination so everybody can be [00:47:00] a bee.

 You mm-hmm. You can't see it because it's a podcast and it's audio. But what I'm waving around is a, uh is a bee in front of my, um, my, my friends here. We cross pollinate. I think we again see what other faculties are are doing. And so we get to say, Hey, did you know that the School of design is looking at circular economy principles?

I think as the dean of business if you haven't had a chance, have a conversation about that. And earlier when we talk about students questioning their majors, whether or not they should be studying what they're studying, I'm seeing the like a trend that I'm putting my pulse on is interdisciplinary programs.

 And I think career centers are really powerful. Again, in, in the position to be able to, um, see what's happening. What students are, are needing. You're talking to [00:48:00] employers too, so you also see both sides to make those recommendations. And I think, um, sometimes, uh, we have a tendency to be really humble when we really should be you know, tuning in our own horn and saying, these are the things that I see and we can make a difference to university with respect to recruitment and retention and in the broader community and beyond.

 I've seen institutions organize problem-based challenges that are tied to the SDGs. I think career centers can look at this as a work integrated learning hackathons, for instance, and then bring students, staff and faculty together to tackle these challenges. And instead of saying, you know, who wants a green job?

Make the assumption that every job can be a green job. And then in your conversations as you're connecting with programs and faculties talk about how did their disciplines influence [00:49:00] sustainability and sustainable systems. So there is a lot we can do in career centers. Yeah. And I love that idea of, of the cross pollination.

Yeah. We should all have one of those bees. Yeah. We should all have one by our decks. Right? It played from plastic. Oh, there you go. Of course. I, oh yeah. Did you wanna say anything about oh, you had some pins right from um, last year's conference. I remember you were distributing them. Do you wanna say a word about that Candy.

Yes. Thank you for the opportunity, Mike and Melissa. Um, so one two years ago when NCDA CEC and um, CCDF, so the Canadian Career Development Foundation came together and, um, was talking about what should be the programming what is something that we can do for, um, career month in North America, which is every November.

 We decided to put together a panel, which I had the honor and [00:50:00] privilege to facilitate. Um, I'm gonna drop some names here. Uh, Shelby McIntyre, whom very well known, NCDA member, government Relations Advocacy, you name it. Um, she was the one that, that, you know, talk about the power of career development professionals and, um, another great analogy where she said.

 If people don't see the power of quote unquote small things, they just need to be stuck in the net, uh, with one mosquito and see what happens. We had a good chuckle and then we were like, Shelby, I think we need to revise because people are scared. Mosquitoes, nobody likes mosquitoes.

Instead, why don't we be. Bees that cross-pollinate because it really talks about the work that we do that goes beyond jobs and work. We are having a very conversation about climate action and sustainability right now. Right? Like, it's just one of the many examples that we have. And so as my, [00:51:00] um just for fun, I created a, a pin design with a bee, and I started to distribute 'em around in conferences that I get to be at around the world.

So, um, I, we can put in the, the show notes, the Padlet that people enter, where they're coming from, when they have, um, when they receive a b pin. It's ranging from, of course, north America, they're the most pins, but we also have Australia. New Zealand, Botswana Europe. So take a look at how global our profession really is and how despite working in different parts of the world, we are talking about very similar things.

And so I think if anything, it's a great way to, to celebrate and recognize how around the world that being a career development professional can be. That's great. Thank you, Melissa. And candy. K. Make sure you bring your, uh, bee pins to Minneapolis. This summer. I've got [00:52:00] bags just right behind me, the entire Okay.

Drawer or nothing but pins. Okay, great. We're moving into the last segment of our time together and I wanna, um, showcase a couple of your contributions and have you each reflect on them. And we're gonna start with Nicki. So Nicki, you've been thinking about this topic for a while, and I think you, you came to me and I think we first co-presented you as the lead.

In San Diego, I think it was, um, in 2024 we did a round table talking about these issues. And from that presentation came a career convergence piece that was published in September of 2025. The title of that was Beyond Green Jobs, students Navigate the Reality of the Climate Crisis. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Maybe, maybe what you mean by beyond green jobs and, and what you hope readers might get out of, um, reading the blog? Yeah I think we've touched on a lot of the kind of key points from that piece today. [00:53:00] But I, I think what we were going for was really talking about how, um, similar to, to what Candy said about how you came to this kind of thinking, like this is a STEM thing, right?

I think a lot of people think here's sustainability, or they hear about the climate crisis and they think this is science, technology, engineering, math. This isn't necessarily me. And so. Uh, one of my goals for that article was just to kind of expand that and say there's really room for everybody in addressing this problem.

Not only is there room, everyone is needed to address this problem. And so so I think that's one piece of it. And then just sharing some of those concrete steps of how career development practitioners can really incorporate this into their practice and how it can support student mental health.

 Especially for folks experiencing that anxiety like candy brought up. The, that idea of anxiety and hope and how, or [00:54:00] action and how like taking action can really can really be a counterbalance to some of that, that those feelings of fear and overwhelm. And so yeah, so I think, I think that's maybe a more kind of succinct version of this conversation.

Yeah, and I think one of the implications that came out of that. That presentation as well as the career convergent contribution was this idea of, of small yet meaningful efforts. Um, you had cited the work of, of Karen Costa, who was an instructor. She had an article published in the Chronicle of Higher Education where she outlined several actions that educators within their pedagogy can take.

And one of them was you know, take, taking baby steps and just noticing where, uh, a difference might, might matter and intentionally taking that, that effort. So I think that's a timely suggestion as well. Yeah, absolutely. And there's some links we can share, uh, like candy said in the, [00:55:00] the resources for this episode might be kinda long, but, um, there's a couple of great resources.

One's from Project Drawdown that has some job function action guides. And I think those are excellent resources for people who are in a particular field and wanna know how to make their job more of a climate job. And then there's just some other, some other readings like Karen Costa, like, um there's some other articles that I think mm-hmm.

Can just help build that awareness piece. Yeah. I think we have the references in our career convergence blog. Yeah. And then we can link to them as well in the podcast notes. Thank you. Yeah, exactly. So, candy, I, you have a number of projects going on. I didn't even know where to start, but I want to talk about one of your recent, uh, articles that was published in the Journal of National Institute for Career Education and Counseling.

This is a mouthful. The title of that piece was Enhancing a Career Development Curriculum by embedding the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals. And I wanna hear more [00:56:00] about your students. Right? So you integrated. Some of these ideas and, and the goals into the expectations for your course, right?

So they, I think you alluded to that they were doing some informational interviews. I think they did an e-portfolio. Can you say more about that for listeners? Like what did students get out of that? What was your experience as as the facilitator or educator for, for that project? Yeah. So, um, I use my classes as a living lab and I've been comparing, um I've embedded the SDGs into the course.

It's meaningful to me, certainly. But that would be really selfish if it's just to, to me, right? So I took the opportunity. To add a, you know, a survey at the end of the course. And I ask students we learned extensively about the SDGs in the course. How has it given you, you know, has it generated any insights for you in relation to [00:57:00] yourself, to your career development?

Anything else that you can give me? And I have about 350 responses that I've compiled in the last two years. Where it was enlightening. So overall, very, very positive that they do see the connections. Um, and in my analysis, I looked at the three levels. So at the first level they can see that the things that they're doing every day towards sustainability from recycling, taking a class on the sustainable development goals and, you know, picking, purposely, picking podcasts and, and news that they wanna read about.

You know, they do believe they're making a difference through that. Okay. So that's the first level. And then there's the second level where they definitely, because it's a career development course connecting the use of SDGs into their, their future and current workplaces. Uh, some have gone as far as embedding the SDGs [00:58:00] into their job applications and employers are taking notice.

So they're certainly seeing that benefit. And then, you know, go. And then the last level goes back to the first level where they thought to themselves, you know, I can do all these things myself, however, I'm only one person. So that's question. There's question around can one person really make a difference?

And so it goes back to that, um, the final level of, um, collective action. So I may be one person, but if I combine join forces with another person, if I instigate a sustainability committee at work or do something, um, talk about. I, um, just trying to give you some example here, a, um, student who is a female referee for her, um, sports.

She talked about gender equality in, in her work as well because referees are traditionally male occupied positions. Um, so [00:59:00] one of the things she's been thinking about is how about we gather a group of female referees and talk about our realities and experiences to make things more concrete. So that's a really great idea of collective action and how it comes together.

So it's been really fulfilling to see all kinds of impact that's coming through. And the course is short, it's only 13 weeks. So this added research living lab project has allowed me to learn about my students what they're doing. And the next step potentially is continuing to follow these students to see where they might go in their career journey and how have SDGs, um, been continuing in their lives.

 Yeah, and it was interesting to read the article and I, I think you had some possibly some excerpts from students and student reactions. They. I would imagine they had a very, very positive things to say about this project, right? 'cause it's personal it's concrete and tangible is, was that [01:00:00] true overall, that, that students generally felt positive about the project?

Yeah, I, I think so. I'm biased. Um, you're biased, of course. But yeah, I, I will say in general, it's been positive, and I wouldn't say this comment is not so positive, but it made me pause and think a little bit more, um, about using SDGs as, as a framework and, you know, emphasis on the idea of a framework.

There was, um, one comment from a student that, you know, was talking about, you know, what the SDGs does not, um, help them better understand what they're trying to do. So what did we end up doing? We added a 18th goal of, um, cultural preservation, right? So I think it's following the students where they're at, and, um, getting them to understand that when a framework does not you know, it doesn't resonate with them, what's their piece in it and how, how can they make a difference?

And it goes back to our entire conversation about justice and advocacy. [01:01:00] Excellent. Thank you. We'll be interested in reading and hearing more from those students as you follow them into the future. That'd be interesting to construct a longitudinal study. Add that to your list candy of, of your ongoing projects.

I know you're always looking for more ideas. All right, so we're moving year too now. Yeah. We're moving into the final, uh, minutes of our time together, and I just want to ask both Nicki and, and Candy a final question. And that is what are you working on or what are you attending to? Like what, what draws your attention right now?

Could be related to this topic specifically or just adjacent to it, but what are you, uh, yeah, what are you attending to and what's on your mind? Why don't we start with Nicki? Yeah. I think I am, I'm sure anyone who's done a PhD can relate to the fact that I'm. Attending to my dissertation a lot currently.

Um, that's good. It's good. That's what I wanted to hear. Okay. Um, but I think, you [01:02:00] know, a reaction I get when I tell people that my PhD is related to sustainability is often like, oh my gosh, isn't that so depressing? And I think it's really not, and or my experience has been that it's not. And when I think about why, I think it's because I get to read the work of so many creative, brilliant people who are working on this problem.

And it's really inspiring to me to see. I think one of the things that interests me about sustainability in general is just how. Uh, the creativity required to think of real solutions or at least much better solutions than we currently have now. And so I would just recommend to anybody who's feeling overwhelmed or, or down about the state of the world to like, to just try to tune in a little bit more to the people who [01:03:00] are, who are doing really cool things.

Like there's, there's things you can follow on social media that have, like startups that are making bricks out of out of fashion waste and like just all kinds of cool projects like that, um, that really give me a lot of hope. So that's what I'm trying to attend to right now. Great. That was gonna actually be my follow up question, is what are you attending to and, or what brings you hope and you address both of those.

So thank you. Candy, how about you projects? What brings you hope or optimism? What's on your mind? Yeah, I've got, um, one, one thing that I think was satisfied, all of the above, and I really really excited about this with, um, Dr. Karen and Chris from the uk. We're working on a edited book titled or an organizational guide to, to Skills for Green Workforce Transformation.

And it's been one heck of an inspiring [01:04:00] project. Speaking of cool things because we have, um, authors from all over the world contributing to chapters that are related. Funny enough, we mentioned Project Drawdown and the, um, eight themes from. Carbon, uh, from, from emissions, from advocacy, from long-term thinking all of the above.

So each of these chapters are, are around a particular theme from the Project Drawdown. And it brings me hope to feature, to learn about these amazing examples of business leaders organizations and what are they doing to advance the, these themes. And also at the same time how this ties back to the career development part is of course the skills, right?

What are the skills, both transformational and transferable skills that are needed in order for our workforce to thrive and to think about green workforce. So yeah, I'm really excited, I [01:05:00] think that book is coming out by the end of this year. So more to come on that. And the lesson here is, you know, find the good, find the positive, inspiring examples to keep yourself going when the work gets tough.

Yeah. Excellent. Thank you. Yeah, we're all excited to read that book. Candy. I know you have another textbook that you're working on. We were joking a little bit before we went live here that you, you have sort of sta staggered your your publication schedule around your, your busy work live. And so we're eager to, to read what's next, uh, from you and, and Nicki.

We're eager to see where your dissertation takes you and I'm sure we'll be in contact as we move forward. So, um, in closing, I wanna thank, uh, both Dr. Candi Ho and Nicki May for joining us in this discussion. Uh, a really engaging conversation that looked at climate justice, social justice, and sustainability.

 [01:06:00] We don't have our contact information here, but I think we're all easily accessible. Um, I'm gonna maybe speak on behalf of all of us and feel free to reach out to us if you have questions or comments. Some or all of us might be at the NCDA conference in Minneapolis, uh, this summer, and we encourage you to, uh, reach out and ignite conversations and, and keep this conversation going around this really important issue.

 Also want to thank, uh, the support of Melissa Venable and the National Career Development Association and Career Conversations, uh, for this opportunity to talk about this topic. Thank you again. Thank you.