DEI Symposium Series - Barriers to Women's Leadership in Male-Dominated Careers

This episode is part of the DEI Symposium Series, developed from the DEI Symposium presented at the 2025 NCDA Global Career Development Conference in Atlanta, Georgia.

Debra Sgro and Dr. Karen Ingram discuss barriers to women’s advancement in male-dominated careers and the concept of the “broken rung,” noting representation drops sharply at higher leadership levels in technology and education. Dr. Ingram describes intersectional challenges as a woman of color, the politics of advancement, and earning a doctorate to meet credential expectations and strengthen her leadership voice. Debra recounts being denied an expected promotion, pushing for an off-cycle promotion, and learning self-advocacy and visibility. They also discuss gender bias and offer tips including assertive boundary setting, documenting contributions, building reciprocal relationships, thinking entrepreneurially, and pairing self-advocacy with amplifying other women.

Deborah Sgro is a certified career professional with a private practice, Beyond The Glass Ceiling, LLC.  She specializes in coaching technology and business professionals at all levels to achieve their envisioned career. As a former senior financial technologist professional, she worked on Wall Street for over 40 years developing technical solutions addressing business objectives for the New York Stock Exchange, American Stock Exchange, and BNY Mellon. Throughout that time, she also groomed emerging talent by establishing and running mentoring programs, providing on-the-job training sessions, and personally coaching to assist people with their career advancement goals. Deborah holds a CCSP certification from the National Career Development Association.  She is also a certified project manager and certified Agile Professional from the Project Management Institute. Deborah holds two master's degrees from Stevens Institute of Technology, one in Computer Science and the other in Technology Management. She is on the Board of Advisors for Women in Big Data, and is the Global Mentoring Director for that non-profit professional association. Deborah also addresses corporate women resource groups, university audiences, and presents at NCDA conferences on all aspects of career advancement. For more information: www.linkedin.com/in/deborahsgro

Dr. Karen Ingram is the Career and Technical Education Director for Davidson County (North Carolina) Schools and current President of the North Carolina Career Development Association.

Resources:

• Dr. Heilman - Gender Bias in the Workplace: Obstacles to Career Progress (Video)
• McKinsey and Company and Lean-In.org: Women in the Workplace 2024
• BLS Reports - Women In The Labor Force

Transcript

Career Practitioner Conversations

National Career Development Association

DEI Symposium Series: Barriers to Women’s Leadership in Male-Dominated Careers

March 31, 2026

Welcome to the podcast. I'm Melissa Venable, NCDA, director of Professional Development, and this episode continues our 2025 DEI symposium series with a conversation about overcoming barriers to women's leadership in male dominated careers. I am here with Debra Sgro and Dr. Karen Ingram. Debra is the founder and principal for Beyond the Glass Ceiling, LLC, and President-Elect of the North Carolina Career Development Association.

Dr. Ingram is the career and Technical Education Director for Davidson County Schools in North Carolina. And current president of N-C-C-D-A. So we're, we're excited to have you both here. Thank you for bringing this conversation to the symposium series and to the NCDA podcast. I will turn it over to you.

Thank you, Melissa and the ncda, DICI leadership for cultivating the Diversity Equity and Inclusion Symposium and this podcast series. As Melissa mentioned, my name is Deborah Sgro. I am a private. Practice career service provider. I'm the founder and principal for Beyond the Glass Ceiling, where I focus on coaching and mentoring women in technology, an area I worked in for over 40 years.

I'm a member of the DICI committee and presented today's podcast topic at the 2025 Symposium. Also mentioned, I'm President-Elect for the North Carolina Career Development Association, and joining me in today's conversation is my colleague and friend, Dr. Karen Ingram, the president of N-C-C-D-A. Karen, welcome and thank you for joining me in this podcast.

Why don't you take a moment and say a little bit more about yourself. Great. Thank you so much. Thank you, Melissa. And thank you Deborah. Um, again, my name is Karen Ingram and I'm excited to be a part of this discussion and providing for this opportunity being provided. I serve as the, in the K 12 sector, um, as Melissa said earlier, as the director of Korean technical education, otherwise known as CTE in the for a public school district.

I oversee career and technical education where students are made college and career ready through work-based learning opportunities such as internships. We do apprenticeships and job shadowing through engagement in courses such as culinary arts, interior design, business essentials, drones, and trade.

Also we do construction and fire technology. I also work collaboratively with eight career development coordinators and as already mentioned by Deb, I currently serve as the president of N-C-C-D-A. I am also the secretary for the North Carolina Korean Technical Education Association, N-C-A-C-T-E. That's a mouthful.

And, and which is a national organization that's focused on the legislative branch of CTE. And I'm very happy to be here. Thank you Karen, and I'm glad we have this opportunity to discuss a topic that has been prominent in both of our careers, that being challenges facing we women's leadership. Now, as I said, I worked over 40 years in financial technology on Wall Street as a technical programmer, project manager, and then senior portfolio manager.

In researching for this, uh, presentation, I looked into the Bureau of Labor Statistics and, and saw that from my field, women occupy 50%, uh, at the entry level. And that's good. That's what we hope for. However, they hold radically less seats when you look up the ladder and by the time you get to the C-suite.

Women hold only 29% of those positions. Karen, in your field of education, women hold 77% of the teachers and instructor roles, and those numbers slip to 50% at the principal level, and then 30% in county supervisor and state supervisor roles. Now this erosion that occurs between the individual contributor and the manager leader levels is referred to as the broken rung in the career ladder of women's advancement.

So let's talk about how each of us. Navigated past that broken, wrong obstacle. Karen, why don't you go ahead and start. Tell us a specific situation early on, maybe where you faced advancement, headwinds, and most importantly, what skills did you use to overcome that obstacle? Absolutely. Um, in my field, advancing to lower levels of leadership, which are roles that may be housed within an actual school campus, was not necessarily a major challenge at that level, but moving and advancing into higher leadership roles that operated from the district level, that is what has proven to be a bit more daunting.

For, for me, the challenge surfaced as a result of my intersectionality not only being a female, but being a woman of color. Women in educational leadership roles represent low numbers and women of color in educational leadership roles such as superintendents are grossly underrepresented at a significantly lower rates such as 3%.

In the state of North Carolina, there are currently only eight women of color in these roles. I personally have encountered the political side of advancement, which focuses more, more on who you know than rather, rather than what you know. To overcome these obstacles, I actually went back to school to earn my doctoral degree as having the credential in hand, in hand, provided with me the, the level of competency that I needed, um, or that was required for such positions that I've mentioned earlier.

Such if I wanted a superintendency role, I needed to have the credential in hand. Pursuit of this degree, my language had to change and I became a lot more academically inclined and able to articulate my thoughts academically. Lastly, I had to be, improve my ability to be creative and innovative, and crafting a vision that would take CTE to the next level, whatever that may look like.

Thanks Karen. I heard you say, uh, it was necessary for you to get advanced accreditation to get noticed and taken seriously, even though. You were demonstrating your abilities and your point really underscores the barrier that can make some people prove themselves twice, once through performance, and then again through credentials.

Thank you. Thank you for naming that so clearly. Absolutely. Deb, how about you? Can you tell us a little bit about what you encountered as you moved up into leadership? Yeah, sure. Um, in my field, promotion and pay raises are announced and awarded in February every year. And in one particular, uh, time of my career development, I had led a sizable project to roll out an essential.

New product at the stock exchange the year before. So naturally I was expecting a promotion and a raise. I got neither come that next February. Uh, I was absolutely beside myself with disappointment and anger. I couldn't believe it as unprepared as I was. I approached my boss and asked what happened, and he said something to the effect that while I had done a good job, I would be considered maybe next year if I could prove that this was not just a one-time result.

Now, I argued that the criteria in the job description for the next level. Had no requirement about proving oneself repeatedly, an undetermined number of times, and that, um. I really saw that, that my abilities had been demonstrated in the past and then made very visible in that most recent, uh, assignment that I had led a team on.

But really what was happening, you see, is that there are only a certain number of promotion slots allowed each year, and I had been shuffled to the side. Because others had got those slots, but I wouldn't let it go there. I had more discussions with my boss and then finally with his boss. And I was promoted four months later.

It's referred to as an off cycle promotion. However, even though I got the promotion and I got the raise, there was no fanfare, there was no corporate recognition. I didn't get to go to the celebratory party. My picture wasn't up on the bulletin board. Uh, you know, so it was, um, kind of a disappointing, uh, uh, victory.

What I did learn was that I was making a mistake by not proactively making people know what I did, make them aware of my accomplishments and that I had to claim and talk about those achievements to my boss, my his boss, and. The clients that I was serving. I didn't know it at the time, but I was cultivating, uh, self-advocacy skills.

Wow. Self-advocacy. Well, at the end of the day, that's something that we need to be able to do effectively, I believe. I think being able to articulate your skills as it directly relates to the role is critically important. I think it's also important to ask the hard questions that cause reflective and authentic response responses.

The response you received also leads me to think that you may need to go into certain roles preemptively, maybe documenting from the beginning, especially in roles that are dominated by males. I think one way to start this kind of documentation could be by listing items on the job description that are part of the skillset that you currently possess.

I also believe that if you come up with new and creative ideas that were not done before, that needs to go in writing as well. I've seen women who are innovative naturally, but someone may take their ideas and they are never recognized for their contributions. Oh, how true. That is so true. And how often that happens in meetings too.

Um, those are great suggestions, Karen. Um, glad that you brought those forward. Now this brings us to another point I presented at the symposium, uh, that being. How there is a gender bias in leadership roles. Now, bear with me here. A bit of background from Dr. Madeline Hillman from Columbia University, did extensive work in this area and found that there are gender-based assumptions both about what leadership is.

Who is in alignment with those leadership expectations. Now, leaders are expected to be assertive, decisive, and dominant, and that. Men are viewed as naturally possessing these age agentic traits. So according to Dr. Hillman's, uh, research by definition, men are seen to make better leaders because they naturally have.

The talents or the skills required of leaders. However, women are seen as possessing collaborative skills by nature because they're believed to be communal, empathetic, and nurturing. Therefore, women don't naturally align with the expected leadership traits. Here's where the double buying comes in. Dr.

Hillman's research pointed out if a woman does align to expected societal, cultural female traits, she's passed over in leadership opportunities because she doesn't have what it takes. And very often, a very, uh, pejorative term is used to describe women. Who don't have what it takes. They're called doormats 'cause they can be walked over.

On the other hand, if she does exhibit a agentic leadership traits commonly associated with men and not expected in women, there is a backlash because she's not performing as society or culture expects and is labeled difficult to work with or strong minded. These women are pejoratively referred to as ice queens Transgressing.

The social cultural norms can lead to isolation. Damaged reputation and being targeted with microaggressions. Karen, we both have supervised and coached other women. Let's talk about what is one piece of advice you like to share with emerging women leaders? Sure, Deborah. I think one of the things that stand out to me that.

A lot of women leaders probably could benefit from is assertive a boundary setting. As leaders, we are often pulled multiple directions with pressing demands from our colleagues, our students, and shifting priorities that are part of our everyday lives. This poll sometimes causes us to forget to establish clear and healthy boundaries.

Which shouldn't be viewed as barriers, but rather as a framework of support. This concept is very personal for me. As I've been building these skills and traits in my own personal and professional life, I have come to recognize that this shift begins with self-awareness. It's become increasingly important for me to know my limits and communicate them with confidence, clarity, and tactfulness.

It is also vital that my productivity not be attached to or dictated by my gender with any unrealistic expectations. Assertiveness in this context shouldn't be viewed as an aggression, but as the steady voice that says, this is what I can commit to, or, let's revisit this, once current priorities have been completed, when this is practiced well.

It can strengthen relationships by building credibility and authenticity. The challenge to you as listeners today is to take one area of your professional life where the boundaries have become somewhat blurred and clearly define that area. Then communicate kindly, but yet firmly. Always remember that boundaries do not limit your leadership.

Actually make it last. Hmm hmm. Thank you for that. Let me amplify your point about, um, women and, uh, maybe being expected to do more than their male colleagues and therefore it's important to set boundaries. Um, one form that this often takes is women are expected, and even senior women leaders are expected to take up the emotional and social caretaking at work.

And this became really evident, uh, during COVID. Um, now, for example, um, they're expected to set up the group, get togethers, organize a collection for an employee. Or maybe pull together office celebration for a colleague's retirement, wedding, or graduation. And I liked the way you were talking about setting boundaries through language.

The phrase I often use is, I can't do that. Let me tell you what I can do, said this way it sets boundaries and expectations. So thanks for, uh, bringing up those topics. Um, here's the tip I'd like to make sure clients and mentees are prepared to explore. And that's the importance of building purposeful re relationships, purposeful relationships through reciprocity.

Something I wish I knew about earlier now. Um, I stress the importance of building two-way relationships that enhance both the offering and the gaining. Visibility opportunity and resources through mutual value. Unfortunately, I see women relying solely on a giving strategy, assuming that if they meet everybody's needs, then surely others will reciprocate without having to ask as if asking was a taboo.

It's also important to realize. These two-way relationships are asynchronous exchanges. Sometimes we're giving before receiving, other times we're receiving before giving. I stress the importance of having credit in the favor bank by proactively offering support or value, and then calling on those favors for collaboration access or advocacy.

When needed. So that's my tip, Karen. Building purposeful relationships using reciprocity. Awesome Deb. I really like those tips and, uh, the areas that you actually identified are important as relationships don't generally flourish solely through generosity. They thrive actually through balance, through genuine two-way exchanges of value.

Networking, I believe, expands beyond collecting context to cultivating relationships that enhance visibility. Um, sometime they open doors of opportunity and they create shared opportunities as well. Strategic influence is rooted in how you show up, how you give, engage, and advocate in ways that make collaboration inevitable.

I try to remind my staff. Relationships are asynchronous. I agree with you wholeheartedly. Sometimes you may need to give before you receive, and at other times this is reversed, but both are healthy and both are essential. In the end. Networking is not transactional, but rather it's transformational when you understand that giving and getting are not opposites, but partners in sustained professional growth.

Right, right. So, Karen, let's close with one more tip, uh, that we might share with, uh, a client or a student. And I'll go first this time, and here's my, my closing tip. No matter our career field or work situation, even if we work within a corporation or a large organization, we're all. In business for ourselves, developing strong entrepreneurial skills such as bringing value to your customers.

And yes, our bosses are one of our customers. Promoting your work effectively and thinking strategically will serve you well in every role. At every level and through every career transition. That's my tip. Remember, we are in business for ourselves. How about your closing tip, Karen? Sure. Deborah. I just wanna remind our listeners that lasting progress comes from collective accountability and self-advocacy.

I encourage you to do both claim space and create space, and as Debra stated. Speak up for your own advancement while sponsoring and amplifying other women's voices. Great. Thank you. And talking about thank yous. A very warm thank you to you, Dr. Melissa Venable, for partnering with us in this podcast production to Dr.

Love.

Mr. Rubin, Britt and Dr. Monroe for all their leadership and support. Thank you to my partner, Dr. Karen Ingram, and to our listeners. Your feedback is welco