DEI Symposium Series - 2025 State of the Union: Providing Career Services in Ever-Changing Times

This episode kicks off a series of conversations that originated with the DEI Symposium, held at NCDA’s 2025 Global Career Development Conference in Atlanta, Georgia. 

Dr. Cheryl Love leads a panel discussion of the challenges and strategies for providing career services amid today's social and political turmoil. The panel - including Dr. Natasha Barnes-Gwynn, Dr. Frank Gorritz, and Ruben Britt - shares insights into the impact of the current political and social climate on career development. The discussion emphasizes the importance of wellness, cultural competence, empathy, and advocacy for minoritized communities. The speakers also highlight the role of career counselors as frontline responders, providing not just career advice but also emotional and psychological support to their students and clients. The episode concludes with a call to action for practitioners to join the NCDA's Diversity Initiative and Cultural Inclusion (DICI) committee and contribute to the ongoing movement for social justice and equity in career development.

Dr. Cheryl Love is a Career Counselor and a College Specialist for the Arts, Humanities, School of Education and School of Public Policy in the Career Center at the University of California, Riverside. In this role she also serves as the Liaison to the African Student Programs, the Black Student Success Initiative, Basic Needs, UCR Transfer Work Group, and the Kessler Scholar Program. 

Dr. Natasha Barnes-Gwynn, CCC, NCC, FCD-I is a Clinical Professor at Southern New Hampshire University. She also serves as a career consultant through her private practice, Increasing Our Understanding (I.O.U.) Consultation, LLC. Dr. Barnes-Gwynn is a newly appointed board member for the Council of Accreditation and Related Educational Programs.

Dr. Frank Gorritz FitzSimons, LPC, is a counselor educator in Florida. He is a nationally recognized scholar and counselor educator on topics including providing affirmative counseling care to queer and transgender communities of color, providing multicultural supervision, utilizing diverse approaches to counseling work, as well as addressing and disrupting white supremacy in counselor education. 

Ruben Britt, Jr. is an educator, author, lecturer, and nationally certified career counselor with over 49 years of experience in education as both a teacher and career planning counselor. A nationally recognized expert on career coaching and educational issues, Ruben has served as a consultant for the U.S. Department of Education, the Educational Testing Service, the New Jersey Department of Higher Education, and several colleges and community organizations. 

Resources

• NCDA's DICI Committee
• DEI Symposium 2026 - Proposal Submissions Form
• NCDA Social Justice Resources

Transcript

NCDA Podcast – Career Practitioner Conversations 

DEI Symposium Series – 2025 State of the Union: Providing Career Services in Ever-Changing Times

Hello and welcome to the podcast. I'm Melissa Venable, NCDA, director of Professional Development, and this episode kicks off a series of conversations that originated at the DEI symposium held at NCDA 2025 Conference in Atlanta, Georgia. I'm thrilled to introduce Dr. Cheryl Love, who will lead this panel conversation about providing career services in ever-changing times.

Dr. Love, it is always a pleasure to have you here. Thanks to you and all of your colleagues for bringing this series to the podcast again this year. Thank you so much, Dr. Mineable, for this opportunity. This is the DEI Symposium podcast series 2.0, our second year of being able to bring the wonderful presentations that  took place at the NCDA Global Conference, N-C-D-A-D-E-I symposium.

And so today, I'm. Here with my Social Justice Warriors  the co-chairs of the NCDA Diversity Initiative and Cultural Inclusion Committee, and they'll be introducing themselves shortly as well as my colleague partner in crime, the co-chair of the DICI. Training subcommittee and he'll get to introduce himself as well.

Well, I am Dr. Cheryl Love.  In addition to being the co-chair of the DICI training committee, , my day job is I am a career specialist here in California at the University of California Riverside. I also am co-founder of an amazing nonprofit and serve as the vice president of the board of the Heartened unseen leaders.

An organization providing, , resources to help unseed leaders, not only in the US but globally be able to make positive impact in their communities. And so  I am really glad to be here today in conversation with this amazing group of folk who's gonna help us.  Put things into perspective with regards to what's going on in our world and how that relates to diversity, equity, and inclusion, and the career service work that we do  throughout the country.

So I'm gonna go ahead and turn it over to  first to Dr. , Natasha Barnes, Gwen, to introduce herself, Dr. Barnes Gwen. Thank you, Dr. Love. I am Dr. Natasha Barnes. Gwen, I am one of the co-chairs of the Diversity Initiatives and Cultural Inclusion, , committee under NCDA.  I also am a counselor educator  where I currently work at Southern New Hampshire University and I own a private practice  increasing our understanding consultation where I work with,  k through 12 post-secondary and business sectors to help them understand career, , development and how they can best utilize resources within their sectors. And I am excited to be a part of this discussion. So thank you Dr. Love. You are so welcome. And I'm gonna popcorn it over to my partner in crime co-chair of the DICI training subcommittee, Dr.

Frank Goz. The floor is yours. Hi, I'm Dr. Frank Gore. I'm a counselor educator in the state of Florida, co-chair of ncda, fabulous Diversity Initiatives and Cultural Inclusion Committee at the training level. It's always exciting to do this work, especially in these ever changing times, so count me in as part of the party for the podcast.

Last but not least, my brother from another mother, a friend for a very long time, Ruben. Britt, the floor is yours. Hello, , I'm Ruben Britt. I am the Assistant Director  for the Office of Career Advancement at Rowan University. I am also author of, , five books and I am the host of radio show called Career Talk and Adjunct Professor.

I am as, , Dr. Love said. I am also the co-chair for the DICI committee, and happy to be here as well. All right. My DICI family, I'm really excited to get this conversation started because there is a lot going on in our world.  Chaos is kind of raining down. , We've got government shut down  as we are.

Recording this, , podcast. I think it's in day 10. And so there's lots of things going on and lots of attacks on diversity, equity, inclusion. And so I just wanna start by  asking this question, you know, in your respective work settings, , we are on the other side of the pandemic, but we're still seeing the impact of  that as well as the chaos that's happening in DC  on.

Social identities, race, ethnicity, sexuality, gender, identity, ability, status, spirituality. So how are you seeing that play out in terms of career development in your workplace?

 I would say that as a counselor educator    there's so many facets of what's going on emotionally, mentally, . That's impacting not only the clients that  we are servicing, but it's also impacting the students that are a part of the programs that we're teaching. And so where I'm seeing it more is  the impact on the students.

We have students who fall under all of those  diverse backgrounds and they are being impacted, , because of the,  I would say the parameters , that are being put around them, um, and the barriers that are now being created for them as it relates to the work that they plan to do, but also the education that they're trying to receive.

And so I think  that's what I'm seeing more is just trying to help them understand how to navigate these waters, , understand how to,  keep themselves well as they are working to potentially keep clients well.  And then how it's impacting us because as  counselor educators, we've got it twofold because if you're in any one of these diverse populations that's being affected, you've got to deal with your own stuff while also helping your students deal with their stuff.

So it's magnified for us.  As you know, I am a black woman. , And so having those identities, it's definitely magnified having to again, try to keep myself well while trying to keep my students well and help them to navigate these waters as well, because obviously they expect us to have the answers  in helping them to be the best in this profession.

And, and sometimes that can be difficult when we're trying to find the answers ourselves because all of us are going through this. Same predicament. So for sure the waters have definitely become more treacherous than ever before it seems. And it's not just about helping them, we also have to figure out how to help ourselves.

Dr. Gore, Ruben, , anything you would wanna add?

  Just to  to add to what Dr.  Bonds Gwen said.    In this profession  you're dealing with students from various backgrounds and this new political climate has really  not only been stressful for me, but you also have to recognize the stress that has been put on students and. I can tell you this, that a lot of my international students that I deal with are really under stress in terms of, um, afraid to go home to visit their parents because they're afraid that they may not be able to get back in.

 And then you have,  students from, underrepresented students who are often now  in positions where they feel like their, the opportunities  for them might be, , diminished because of, of the, of their race and their  ethnic background.  One of the things is. I tried to be, , helpful with them is to provide them with access with  with information and resources.

 Fortunately, I'm a person of color, so it's somebody that they, that looks like them, that can provide them with the different types of resources, but it's important to be empathetic, to understand that  they're going through  , stress and trauma through this whole new, political climate.

Yes. I will tell you that the stress level it, it even goes down to the little ones my younger sister teaches. TK kindergartner, so four and five year olds, and she's seeing mental health issues rising that young. And so  the things that are happening, um, around us really do impact. And so, yes, we as queer practitioners, we are on the frontline to try to help, , our students navigate these things.

And Dr. Gortz. Absolutely, and this is even happening to our adult practitioners as well. So, you know, I work with a lot of minoritized folks, um, across the lifespan who are encountering various forms of stress, especially when we have minoritized survivors of violence. Trying to speak out against what's happening, but then get penalized for it by their workplace.

Or worse yet, have reached Harass 'em online to find out where they live, to find out where they were to make false reports.  And to try and get them fired from their work. So even as a career counselor, I actually worked to write letters of support for those people about, hey  so there are eight groups online who are feeding this information to you to disparage my client.

And we need to take that into consideration in terms of mental health impacts and emotional impacts, and especially economic impacts as they're literally trying to ruin and slander this person's reputation for you.  Because I definitely think our employers need to hear that, and they need to see that and be faced with groups and not just the truths that are presented to them by hate groups.

 For sure. And that leads me to, , this next question, , because we're seeing  revisionist history becoming, , a, a real thing  real time where, , folks are trying to rewrite what it's true and so. With that said, given history surrounding anti-blackness, racial violence, and white supremacy, um, and all these things seem to be on the rise, , how can career practitioners address career development?

Considering these forces, 'cause these forces seem to be getting louder and louder  because of what's going on in DC how can we, as career practitioners address career development  considering these forces?

Dr. Go, I'll start with you. So when we think about anti-blackness, you know, anti-blackness is very insidious. And I think that when it comes to what's impacting our communities of color, especially our black communities right now in terms of career, this is another area of life where they're expected to be silenced, but also to die quietly.

, Because we know spirit murder is very real and it doesn't just happen to children. As the fierce, Dr. Patina love writes about her work. Uh, we want to do More Than Survive  and her other articles on that too. But, you know, spirit murder is something that happens to adults as well. And the more that they try to kill our spirits, , the more that they're hoping that we'll just suffer with science and not speak out about it.

And. That is becoming a change now too, where we are putting out into focus anti-blackness, talking about what it is, talking about how it literally kills people because distress is so real and shortens life expectancy. A KH arom at L 2006  , thet is real when it comes to anti-black business impact, but for career counselors we have an obligation and we have the duty.

Beyond this application, we have a duty to support our people through that, to see how violence impacts them and to stand with them, to comfort, to empower, to even just hold quiet space. Because storytelling in itself is feeling as would tell you and any other liberation theorists to tell you. And yes, career counselors can do that too for their clients.

Yes. And that, , just like to add to. Dr. Gore said  one of the things  that I've often mentioned before is  as assistant director  I'm one that speaks out against injustice, and particularly when it pertains to students and staff.  In my position as assistant director, I am in , a protected, uh.

Because I'm in the faculty union as a manager. They're not in, they're not in  any type of union. So , they, a lot of times folks will fold because they, they're more concerned about job security as opposed to  addressing  issues.  Particularly, , when you're dealing with underrepresented students.

 What I've done in my role be, and, uh, and I've partnered with many of the different    organizations, student organizations  such as, , we did a program  with the Divine Nine, which is the, uh  consists of black fraternities and sororities. , We did a career development program with them, and from that.

 They recognize that, you know, we    we are  an org a department that supports them. And so they have also further asked us to do  workshops. Um, they've also went out and shared information about, , our services to other organizations as well.    Latino organizations, the indigenous organizations, but because of that  we've  provided , an open door policy.

And so, , our career center has always been a safe space for students of color even just to come in  and sit and relax and, and know that there's a, there's a place that they can come to. And, and, and the fact that we've addressed. Issues with the powers that be regarding racism, multi  microaggression  and, and also the importance that we do have a  a strong  representation of people of color that work in the career center.

Yeah. All of those things are so powerful. And I just wanted to, um, go back to something you said, Dr. Gore hold quiet space.  I think that's important. 'cause oftentimes we d we want to  erase people's experiences and then we don't want to give them the, a space where they can feel comfortable, like what you were mentioning, Ruben, to be able to be seen and heard.

And to  get resources that can help 'em. And I think that's just so important and it doesn't happen too much. I also think, yeah, if you have privilege, I may be a black woman, but I am a seasoned professional, don't mind saying seasoned professional, and I can speak up on things and I do. When I know others who maybe are new to the profession and they're like, oh, I, you know, I'm trying to keep my job.

I, I don't wanna say too much. I don't have that problem. And so I use that privilege and I speak up whenever I can.  Dr. Barnes, Quinn, um, anything you would wanna add as relates to dealing with anti-blackness, racial violence, and white supremacy in the critical work  that we as queer practitioners do?

I think you all have made some great points. The only thing that I would add is that we just have to be real about what's going on  as career practitioners and we have to be real with the people that we're working with. The reality of it is there will be times when we can advocate and we can speak out, and it falls on deaf ears.

So I think being real and also going to where , we are accepted, we can continue the movement of advocacy, but we don't wanna exhaust ourselves to the point that we can't function at our highest and we can't be our best because we're fighting so hard in a space that is not. Hearing or receiving anything that we're trying to give them, we have to be realistic.

The world we live in, it is not a world of everybody accepts everybody. Everybody loves everybody, and, and we are all kumbaya. We do not live in that world. So I think as career practitioners, the best thing that we can do when we're working with our clients, with our students is to prepare them for the world that they're living in and they're working in, and to help them understand how to self-advocate, how to advocate in their profession, but also know when it's time to move on.

There are times when it may, you may need to take your talents elsewhere. And so I think one thing that we have to do is be real with, with the people that we're working with and helping them understand that don't. My mom, excuse me. My mom always would tell me  stop letting people use your brain. And so sometimes we have to get to a point to where we realize that  our talents will suit us better somewhere else where our brain usage is benefiting us more so than others.

So that's, that would be what I would have to add. I wanna go back to something that we are talking about because.  I think what career counselors need to understand, especially when minoritized communities, especially black communities are seeking at career. This isn't just about helping somebody find their job.

This is actually a space and that we hold space for the future. Black people and people of color are scared about their future and they want somebody to sit with them through that. It's not just on the Holland's theory of workplace compatibility. They're trying to see how can I survive knowing what is expected of me, what is, how I might be treated, how I might be perceived.

And I, I really think that's important for all career counselors to keep in mind that this isn't, career counseling isn't just some like really form of counseling. This is some serious stuff. We're talking about people's livelihood and survival.  Dr. Go had talked about, uh, uh, spiritual, uh, murders.

   I say I always use the term dream killers and it very means the same thing, but the students often encounter faculty  and sometimes career practitioners who are dream killers. And that's why  it's so important for us to kinda break down  this, uh, this barrier that has created trauma for these students from these dream killers and provide them, uh, not only in, you know, we're almost like,  counselors, not let alone career practitioners, to really kind of help them kind of rebuild them a little bit in terms of  their confidence  and letting 'em know the various types of career possibilities.  And Dr. Barnes Gwen said, you know, wanna also burn ourselves out. But we also have tried, have participated in different events.

These students  particularly their organizations have hosted in the student, um, chapter of the naacp, have gone to events like that. Some of the different, um, uh, student  sponsored balls or functions that we've gone there. But trust me, I picked my spot because  I try not to burn myself out as well.

I love it,  being real with your students or clients that you're working with. Um, as you've talked about, Dr. Barnes Swin is very helpful. Um, I've had students say to me, Dr. Love, I appreciate you being real, because others have. Tried to sugar a coat and tried to put rose colored glasses on when I know what is happening.

And it's, it's not what they're trying to  share with me. And so I appreciate  that and the concept of spiritual murder, dream colors, and I would just  charge everyone who's listening to this podcast to not be that. And so, uh, I just can't stress that enough if, and. In terms of what we're going through, um, in the times we find ourself in  one of the things that you can do, if you really want to serve all of the students, all of the clients that  you have before you, it's to, um, not do those things.

But anyway, um, please, before we move on, I wanted to make a point from what Dr. Goon said,  he mentioned the theories and like this is not just a, Hey, pull, pull the Hollands theory out and let's find out what people are interested in when we're working with  these populations that are being impacted by what's going on today.

 And I just wanted to add, just as a council educator who teaches  and that's my area of expertise, career counseling  there are many theories out there and I think that's one of the things that we have to  stay abreast of. As career practitioners, we've gotta understand that there are theories out there that focus on crisis, that focus on transition, that focus on, um, our self-directedness and helping us to understand our self-concept and how that plays into the role of work that we'll take on.

And so it helps us to understand our development. There are too many theories out there for us too. Candy coat the experience of, uh, minoritized individuals. So I just wanted to make that point before we moved on, that that is something that is very important for career practitioners to understand is how to use the theories because they're out there and they're continuing to be developed  in ways that they can.

Assist diverse populations. And I think that we're doing a disservice to our students and our clients if we're only focusing on those theories that focus on their  interests. Because we, we are beyond interest. Many of us know what we're interested in. We are just being blocked from doing what we are interested in because of these, uh, barriers that are being put in front of us.

So we've gotta be able to use some of these other theories that are out there and understand how to maneuver the theories to best assist our clients and students.  I love that. And that gets back to, um, the point  thank you, um, Dr. Barnes, Wynn, um, because that also gets back to the point that Dr. Gore was making.

It's not just about. Helping them get a job is about also helping them to survive and thrive and it, you need to be able to be aware of, as you were mentioning Dr. Barnes, when the theories that are out there that can really help you do the best for the students, the clients that you are serving, and you're doing a disservice to them when you don't do.

The work is what I like to call it. And so, um, I, again, another call out. You all need to do the work. You need to be aware of, um, the theories that are out there that can support diverse populations, not just one population. So you can effectively do your job. Just saying anyway  to get into, this is just great conversation.

It's uplifting my soul. So thank you all.  We are dealing with,  a political climate that minute by minute it shifts, shape shifts. And so.  Because we are dealing in kind of chaotic  times  how have that impacted the work that you do?

And  I'm on a call with some amazing DEI warriors and social justice advocates, and I know that you guys are continuing to do amazing things, but I'm just. Wanting to, you know, kind of do a room check. How has the chaos that's going on in our universe impacted the work that you're doing in career services?

  For me, what I'll say is it, it has shifted the work that I do to give it a more wellness focus. Um, I've been very intentional with students, with clients, with  the organizations that I work with to really push the agenda of wellness because. When we are living in times such as these, it can definitely take a toll on all areas of our wellness.

So I have been very intentional about pulling out the wellness wheel, about looking at those different axles on the wellness wheel to say, are you occupationally well? And if not, then what can you do to shift that?  If you can't do anything in this moment, are you emotionally well? Are you mentally well?

Are you spiritually well? Because I think in times like this, we have to rely on our wellness. We have to really dig into that space because it's turbulent waters, as you stated, Dr. Love. And so we've really got to take care of ourselves as we're fighting the good fight because advocacy is difficult work, it's tiring work, it's it's long suffering.

Um. So we've gotta make sure that as we're going through this process, we are absolutely taking care of ourselves through it all. So for me, that has been a major push for, for me in the work that I've been doing.

Ruben  how has this current climate affected your day-to-day? Basically  what Dr. Barnes Gwen  said is. What I've been doing as well, and even in my classes    I do wellness exercises  to kind of find out how everybody's doing, you know? Um  and the one thing that educators  misunderstand is that students can tell if you care.

And so when you, you provide  authentic,  relationships with your students. Um, you   and you ask them questions and you show that you care.  That, that, that's another thing that can help break some of the trauma that they're dealing with in  in class, um, and in, in their, their, uh, career, uh, journey in terms of exploring career options and dealing with.

Personal issues because, you know  this group of college students are dealing with a lot of different issues that sometimes the average person doesn't even think about it. A lot of times we get caught up in our own experience, well, we did went to college, we did this and that, but these students are going through a lot and, and understanding  generation  Z generation, uh, millennials.

 It's important to     to really look at the holistic approach in terms of understanding each student individually  whether you're dealing with students, um, with disabilities  L-L-B-G-Q students as well.  And underrepresented students. So they all have a story.   And, uh, Dr.

Gobert said, talked about storytelling. So when you hit, you listen to them. 'cause it's, I, it's important that we listen to them as first because you can't learn anything from them by talking.  You learn from listening.

And Dr. Goth. And you know, I especially, I think back to my own experience as well, because I know like the generations have been really faced with this. For a long time, and I can also remember too what it was like to be a gay high schooler back in 2004, 2005, where the only representation we had was Carson Presley on tv.

 And queer culture has come a long way in terms of its representation in media, and that in itself is lifesaving in terms of career counseling. We have to remember that in career counseling we're also life savers in that. When, right now there are so many people who are facing the psychological and wellness related impacts of oppression.

Like we are literally the frontline responders right now  for those people, because we as career counselors can make or break the people we serve and make a difference in terms of what people see in front of them versus what people may not be able to see in front of them. And more as their dreams slip away, as their prospects  slip away.

 So I wanna reemphasize as well the importance of career counseling. And not only just like, um, what I mentioned before about like people's, like limited use of theory, but also to like how people treat career counseling in general.  They treat it as like some, like second grade class. I'll never forget that.

Like so many people will be like, oh yeah, career counseling, yeah, whatever. And I'm like, oh really?  We're probably one of the most important counselors out there in the world right now because face it, we spend so much of our lives thinking about work being at work. So how the hell are you gonna have career counselors?

Not know what's going on out there right now and how people are being impacted by anti for sure. So I love, we are frontline responders. I'm gonna use that.  Probably today and a few times. Oh, go for it. I love it. Yeah. And interacting with people to explain the importance of this work. And I love  Reuben and Dr.

Barnes Quinn the, um, focus on wellness and in fact here  at the University of California Riverside Career Center where I work, we actually have a wellness committee and so that we can do things to pour in and love on each other so that we can be. The most effective we can be as we're working with, um, the, um, the students that we serve in, in times like these.

I think wellness at the forefront is definitely  a key thing into, remember, like you have said, Dr. Gores, that we are lifesavers with this critical work that we do. So I know you guys have touched on some of these things already as we've been in conversation. Um, but  what should. Career practitioners.

'cause again, we wanna give them some tools. We've talked about, you know, some of the chaos and things that you guys are doing to work through that chaos. Get to the other side of it. But what should career practitioners know for this time that we find ourselves in to support clients and students  especially from historically marginalized communities?

  So something that I always like to just kind of hang my hat on when it comes to this discussion is. Understanding cultural competence. And there are three spaces of cultural competence that I always zoom in on when I'm talking to people about the work that we do.

And the first piece is self-awareness. And so I think we have to  do the work and, and investigate our own biases and our own prejudices to make sure that we are not.  A part of the oppression that's taking place, a part, a part of the barriers that are being put in front of people. Because a lot of times I think those  microaggressions and things that are hidden from our plain sight, those blind spots that we have are.

Contributing to  a lot of what's going on with marginalized population. So I think the first piece is the self-awareness piece. The next piece is gaining  the knowledge necessary. So once you know where your biases lie, you need to do the work, you need to do the research.  Talk to individuals, do whatever you need to do.

Go to counseling, whatever the work looks like for you. You need to do the work so that you gain the knowledge that you need  to better assist these populations. And then lastly, the skills. You have to know what you're doing. So if you don't understand these theories. You can't be an effective practitioner if you don't understand career theories, if you don't understand interventions, if you have not  looked into the different assessments that can be used.

 All of that. Is important to the work that we do. So gaining the skills  so that you can effectively work with the populations that we're  discussing is important. So I think those are the three pieces of career of cultural competence that I push when it comes to the work that we do as career practitioners.

Because if you don't know.  Your own self and your own issues. If you don't get the knowledge, if you don't get the skills, you will not be effective in this work. And, and that's not just  in turbulent times, that's just across the board period. So I think we just need to have best practices of being culturally competent so that we can best serve our clients.

For sure best practices. Indeed. And in fact, uh, I'll do a little shameless plug. I know our committee, DICI is working on  putting the final touches on the upgrade. I'm calling it an upgrade of the multicultural competencies that NCDA um, had put forth a number of years ago, and it had been a while since they had been.

Updated. And so, um, Dr. Christian Chan is leading the charge for that. So stay tuned 'cause you're gonna, um, see some, um. Good information to do what Dr. Barnes, Gwen just mentioned you needed to do to be culturally competent in the work that you're doing to serve your students and clients.  Dr. Goz  um, Ruben, anything you'd like to add?

'cause I mean, Dr. Barnes, Gwen, she just dropped the mic, made it clear. There's three things, but anything you wanna add to, to what we, yeah, I just, um  once again  Dr. Barnes, Gwen was right on point. When she talked about the importance of   emphasizing  theories and  one of the theories that, that I've strongly, , believe in is the communicative action.

By  Jurgen Havingness and he, uh, talked about how important communicative action is    and that it is, it's about establishing a common understanding through open and honest communication.  And it  and it should be focused on truth, justice, and authentic engagement. And, and as I mentioned before, students can tell if you care.

Through communicative action. You also learn from the students because, uh, it's , not always about I'm the A counselor and I know  this and I know that, but it's also about understanding the students, um, as I mentioned earlier about knowing what they go through and, and when you, when you understand  when you are learning from each other.

   This is a part of this  this theory that, uh, having this is, is talked about, but having that  that, that common understanding  and open  and, and that allows students to feel more comfortable with you, um, when you, when they feel that you're open, you're honest  and then that  you're truthful with them.

These are the things that, that will, will not only  enhance your, your ability to work with students  who are going through their different  situations as well as students from various    backgrounds as well. For sure. Authenticity. People can tell when you're not real. Dr. Gore, uh, what would you like to add?

Yes.  I would say something that career counselors really need to do is make sure that our minoritized communities are being allowed to take front and center stage in deliberation movement, and to be able to allow them to articulate the lived truth. Our people experience because for so long I think many aspects of counseling have had a cultural dominance related to white culture.

And again, that doesn't mean that white people or white communities are bad, but we have to understand that we have a long cultural history of what it means to be white in America and what it means to be a person of color in America. And I think for a long time we've had so many white people really front and center.

Telling everybody else what  career counseling is, what multicultural counseling is, and we are just starting to see the benefits of letting our own communities, our queer communities, our communities of color, our queer communities of color, be able to speak for themselves and their lived experiences and to really help lead the way.

Without also over exhausting our queer people of color for resources. So I think there's that paradox, right? But no matter what, I think a big deal here is to respect the voices, to respect the autonomy, and to respect the boundaries of queer people of color and career accounts.  For sure. So I could talk with you guys all day, um, love being in a community with you, but our time together for today is coming to a close.

And so I just want to see if  each of you have any last words you'd like to share to those who will be listened to this podcast as,  they continue to navigate  the ever-changing climate, um, as they continue to try to do  the work that they do as career  service professionals. So, um, last words.

Shameless plug. The DICI committee is always welcoming New members who are passionate about this work and want to be change agents in a very turbulent time.

DICI is amazing. Come join the movement.  Ruben.

Dr. Barnes, uh, the  definitely put in a plug for the DICI  committee in terms of the  the many things that we are doing that have really  taken, have had an impact on. The, in the National Career Development Association  case in point, this podcast  let alone the DEI symposium that we, .

Hosted  at the conference and let alone the, Juneteenth reception. But  we've done any  we've done some innovative things that would  welcome. We welcome the opportunity    to, um.  To have more members    as, uh, Dr. Barnes Gwen said  who are interested in  being change agents.

And, and we just have to be actively involved in addressing  issues that, that pertain to race, ethnicity  and self  sexual orientation, um, because everybody should have a voice. And  all too often  the voiceless, uh  often left behind, and so we have to constantly be at the cutting edge and also be culturally aware of people from all different backgrounds.

Dr. Go for the listeners out there. I want you to use your voice to fight for change. For our minoritized people, we've had to fight for so long up until now, surviving is what we've done and now it's our time to thrive, right? And if we continue to hide in the shadows because we think that our dominant culture is going to protect us, right?

So if we don't wanna speak out because of job security, we don't wanna speak out  for our reputation, et cetera. Being a person of color and being a respectable person of color is not safe right now.

 And it never was. And so with that, I want everybody to use their voice for social justice change to not be afraid, because you'll always have somebody to protect you to be by your side, and I feel like that's what the DICI committee represents for us is that haven, that sanctuary that once took me in three years ago when I was just beginning my journey.

So know that this home is open to you. That you don't have to be afraid to use your voice anymore.

For sure. Don't be afraid. Become part of the movement. The DICI committee is looking for folks who want to be change agents, and we also are now  taking proposals for our fourth annual. DEI symposium that will be taking place in Minneapolis. Um, the deadline to submit a proposal will be November the seventh.

Um, it'll be in the meeting notes so you'd be able to see the link. So we hope you will consider to be a part of the movement and share your voice. And  I'll end by saying something that a student that I work with said that was so profound. Every chance I get, I share it. He told me, you know, when you are born you look like your parents.

When you die, you look like your choices. And so I say make good choices. Um, thank you all  for being on the call with. Me and this amazing conversation and for those who will get the chance to listen to it, I know you will be blessed and I hope you will also listen to other parts of the DEI Symposium podcast series 2.0.

And , again, consider being a part of the DICI committee for NC