AI & The Digital Presence Framework with Dr. Sheetal J. Patel and Michael Joiner-Hill

In this episode, host Melissa Venable discusses artificial intelligence (AI) and digital presence with guests Dr. Sheetal J. Patel and Michael Joiner-Hill from Stanford University's Integrative Learning Portfolio Lab (ILPL). Their conversation explores the importance of digital presence in career development, the role of personal branding and storytelling, and approaches to help students and clients navigate the digital space. The episode emphasizes the dynamic nature of digital presence and offers a framework for effectively guiding students and professionals that addresses diversity, equity, and inclusion considerations.

Dr. Sheetal J. Patel has 20 years of experience across industries helping organizations and people understand how to have the greatest impact. She is currently the co-founder of the Integrative Learning Portfolio Lab at Stanford University and 95z consulting, founder of A2O, Inc, a researcher and strategist at LinkedIn Learning, a published author, and speaks and consults regularly. She is also a CTI (CoActive) trained and Design Your Life and ICF ACC certified Career Coach working with early career professionals through C-suite executives. Her recent research has focused on Generative AI in storytelling, meaningful work, multigenerational workplaces, learning, DEI online, ePortfolios, digital presence, and brand management. Dr. Patel earned a PhD in Mass Communication with focus areas on media psychology, consumer research, strategic communication and advertising, and nonprofit public health communication from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill; a master’s degree in Advertising; and two bachelor’s degrees in Advertising and Public Relations from the University of Texas at Austin.                

Michael Joiner-Hill possesses a decade of experience as an educator and leader in higher education. He currently serves as an Associate Director for Career Coaching and Education at Stanford Career Education, leading the Center’s efforts in providing high quality career education support for undergraduate and master’s-level students pursuing degrees in the humanities & sciences. Prior to joining Stanford Career Education, Michael was the Director of the Humanities & Arts Student Success Center at San Jose State University and Assistant Director of Student Engagement for 18,000+ liberal arts undergraduate students at the University of Michigan. He has a BA in Psychology and MSW in Interpersonal Practice with a focus area of mental health, both from the University of Michigan.  

Resources

• Integrative Learning Portfolio Lab
  • ILPL Digital Presence Framework
  • Story Strategies
  • Example portfolios 
• Learn more about this topic through Sheetal and Michael's upcoming NCDA webinar.
  
  

Transcript

Career Practitioner Conversations

National Career Development Association

AI and The Digital Presence Framework

Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Melissa Venable, NCDA's Director of Professional Development, and it's my pleasure to host this episode, which will be focused on AI and digital presence. I'm here with two guests, Dr. Sheetal Patel and Michael Joyner Hill. And they've got great bios. We're going to put more information about them and their links in our show notes. They each wear many hats related to career development and advising and counseling and coaching. And they're here today to share their work with the integrative learning portfolio lab or the ILPL, which is at Stanford university. So thank you both for being here. Thanks for having us. I'm super excited to talk today. Yeah, thanks for having us equally really excited to be here and talk a little bit more about the work that we've been doing and the stuff that we really care about here. Absolutely. I think this is going to be a great episode for our listeners who are really looking for technology information and advice and About new tools, and we're super interested about AI at MCDS, so this is going to be a great conversation. 

So let's just kick it off with a little bit of groundwork here. What is digital presence, and why is it so important in the realm of career development? So the way the lab defines digital presence is really providing a roadmap online in the digital space to how people you want people to experience you so that can mean you know how do you want people to think about you like how do you think what value do you add depending on the opportunity that you're online for you, job seeking, are you looking for a promotion. But for whatever that opportunity is that you're looking for, how are you presenting that roadmap in the digital space? When it comes we often hear about how do you personal brand, what's your personal brand, but that all comes back down to what's, how do you want people to really experience who you are and then how do you actually put that in the digital space when it can be asynchronous, you may not be there to have that two way conversation but really be able to authentically tell your story the way you want it, told. Mike, anything you want to add? No, actually, you actually springboarded right into what I was going to say. I'm looking at digital presence in the way that we define it as a storytelling, right? It's how are you telling the key details of, again, your brand or who you are, what you represent, what you care about in a digital space. It's how are you representing yourself when you're actually not physically present to do fantastic. So our listeners are really those folks that are helping those job seekers and helping those students. So what advice do you have for those helpers coaches, educators, counselors, advisors, who are working with people who are trying to navigate this digital footprint and all the things that means? Yeah, I would say be okay with the fact that this is not an exact science. There are tons of experts who do this sort of work and work with students on maintaining or developing and then maintaining their digital presence. And, we operate, with a particular framework and we feel really confidently in that framework. That being said, it still is an inexact science. There's so much technology out there that's rapidly changing. And so the way in which, you're working with students and communicating the process and the tools that can help them to, again, identify and maintain a digital presence that they're proud of, like that stuff can change. And it's still really exciting work though. And so what I would say to, to educators who are working with students, is, Just embrace the fact that the roadmap is not necessarily going to be linear for all students on and by that the way in which you tell your story on one platform might look one way and on another platform and might look a little differently. You're obviously aiming for you know some consistency in terms of, you don't want to be a completely different person. In different places of the internet. But that being said, your audience may change. And so understanding that when you are working with students different aspects of their identities they may want to be shared in certain places, but maybe not so much in other places. And that's okay. Let's encourage them to explore, the different aspects of their identities and really wrestle with the fact that maybe right now I'm comfortable with sharing this, but in a few months, I might not. And so maybe I need to alter things a little bit. Again, it's not an exact science. We feel like we've got a pretty good playbook. But that being said, there's a play. I don't know if your listeners are sports fans at all, but there's room for audibles. And audibles happen pretty often. And that's okay. I think that's really well said, Mike. I would probably just add a couple piece of advice. One, I think when you put your story online, people think, Oh, what's my LinkedIn profile? But when I've worked with anyone from, freshman in college or, in high school, all the way through those in their Encore careers or in their professional careers. It is a journey and it can really involve some soul searching where you're trying to figure out what are your values and then how do I show that online and in which channel? So it's not a surface level process. And so if you have a client or a student that you're working with to really just see how deep they're willing to go, because it can be really useful to really have them understand that core foundational. story first and then be able to put it online in the way that they want. And the second piece which I think Mike already alluded to is really thinking clearly about diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging. I know in other parts of the world that they include colonization in that decolonization, sorry, in that. 

And so really thinking about who the person is and which pieces of their identity they want to share and not share, and how that could land depending on what they want to share. And it's not that we as coaches or counselors or advisors would dictate what they share, but that person really understands their values so they know what they want to share. It can make a decision accordingly. And then third, I just, I love what Mike said. This space is changing constantly. Whether it's the person that's changing. Our career fields that are changing, skills that are changing and outpacing, change that we've never seen them before and obviously technology changing. So I think just the change management piece can be something that needs to be talked about with, student, coaching client, counseling client, whoever that is. I think the two of you just come up with something that sort of light bulbs went off for me and, the word change is everywhere right now, and everything's changing more quickly than it ever has in the past, all kinds of things. And we think about embracing the change of technology, but we don't often think about embracing the change within ourselves. And really reassessing and taking that into consideration as well. And so when we're talking about something like digital presence, there's a two changing entities, right? That we've got to manage as we go forward. So you've hit on some things. We're going to definitely talk about DEI here. 

I want to Sheetal, you talked about, you mentioned a LinkedIn profile, right? So a lot of people think about digital presence. They think about. Their social media profiles, but there's more to it than that. And the work that you all are doing at the Stanford ILPL is with e portfolios. And I don't think that's going to be a new topic necessarily to our career development listeners, but what you all are doing with that is, is more structured. So can you tell us something about the key components of an e portfolio and how you're guiding students and professionals with that? Yeah, absolutely. So when you think about ePortfolios, there's three components. There's folio thinking, which has a whole scholarship behind it. Our colleague, Dr. Helen L. Chen, which many people may know, has done quite a bit of research on folio thinking and how that works with ePortfolios. There's the storytelling component. And then the third component is the digital presence piece. And so when we think about e portfolios, there's a lot of pieces there. So it's not just here, let me put a website online, but it is really the process of reflection that you go through to develop your portfolio. It is the digital presence piece of it that gives you control over that. story, right? So as opposed to a LinkedIn profile, a social media profile where you have to follow a format really an e portfolio gives you the power, puts the power in your hands or your client's hands, right? To be able to tell their story in the way that they want to. And then again, there's that storytelling piece. So you have much more media and space to tell the story the way you want to. And so I think e portfolios are actually really important for digital I I'm seeing them much more across fields. We used to only see them in like art fields or, product design, but I'm seeing them much more across many industries in the professional fields to be able to show your work, essentially. And so I think there's a lot of power in e portfolios. I don't know, Mike, if you would add anything to that. No, what I really love and I'm glad that you mentioned it was this idea of reflection, because that ties in really well with. In my career as a career coach and educator, we talk so much with folks at all different ages and stages of development about the power and the impact and the importance of active reflection. 

And so when I'm working with students and we're talking more about this idea of an e portfolio. Again, it almost always comes down to reflecting on previous experiences and trying to make meaning of those experiences. And once you've been able to do that, okay, what's the best way for me to represent that meaning, through, again, an e portfolio? What are the different aspects that make the most sense for me to communicate publicly based on the audience that I'm intending to reach? What's the, what am I trying to make them think or feel as they engage with me in a digital place? And we talked so much about that in career coaching appointments, just when a student is even wanting to talk about how do I find a job, right? That's going to provide me with a sense of meaning, right? That's going to make me feel like I'm doing something purposeful. Let's reflect upon all the experiences that you felt have gotten you to this point. And let's identify, what the point of those were and how are those going to impact the decisions, in your sense of fulfillment going forward. 

And so we talk about e portfolios. This is a representation of, that reflection. And so I see it as being such a key component. And so everything that she do, everything you said, absolutely. But that reflection piece really was the light bulb moment for me as well, is because again, it ties in so closely with the work that we do and the approach that we take as career coaches and educators. And I'll just add something that Mike said made me think of that's the name of our lab is integrative learning, because what ePortfolios allow you to do is essentially take All of your experiences, professional, educational, extracurricular hobbies, whatever it is, and integrate them. So that you're able to reflect and tell how those connections, how do all those experiences connect to make your story, and then tell it for the opportunity that you're looking for. So that's part of why we have the name of the lab as it is because we really believe in that reflection process. And you all have developed a curriculum around this. It's not it's a pretty structured framework, I think is the word that you use. And I was able to browse what you have online for the lab, which any of our listeners can do. And I encourage you to do and you'll see some great examples of some of the students that you've worked with as well, have their portfolios. 

So can you tell us a little bit about that curriculum? Yes, absolutely. We have been developing this curriculum for quite some time. The lab's been around for five or six years. And Dr. Helen Chen, as I mentioned, has been doing scholarship for years and years, and her and I have been working together, I think, for over 10 years now. We've done quite a bit of research and working with many communities across the world, so not just students, but testing out this framework with other populations as well. So the framework really has a few different steps and the first few, I think students or clients that I'm working with will always expect us to talk when you talk about digital presence. They want to, they want you to talk about the channel first, like what's the website or the web. thing that I should use or the LinkedIn profile, right? But actually where this framework starts is from reflection. It is first asking, the first step is really what's your story now? So it's really asking you to reflect on what's out there. What story are you telling? What story is in the online space about you right now? How is that being seen? Is it the way you want? Is it not? Is your story even coming up at all? Like, how what is out there right now? The second piece the second step is really understanding your purpose for being online and the audience who you want to talk to. And there's a few different pieces there, but really getting to the core of what's my purpose for being online. And who do I want to tell my story to? And then the third step in the framework walks through developing your story. Everything from understanding your values, the skill sets you have, the experiences you have, really developing those building blocks. And then taking that and getting it to a short and brief story.

 So we have several story strategies that people can use all online. You can check it out at eportfolio. stanford. edu. But you can use those story strategies then and then. be able to really build out what that story looks like. And then the next step in that framework is developing evidence. So if you think about your story that short story as like your thesis, the evidence is really, how do you support that thesis statement? And so evidence, we just talk about showing, not telling. So really what are the artifacts? Do you have pictures? Do you have videos? Do you have papers? Do you have copy text? Whatever it is projects, things that you can really, exhibit your story with, but not just the artifact. You have to add meaning to that. So what are the skills you developed? Were they hard skills? What, what challenges did you have? What was your role in that? So really explaining that. And then the last two steps, then once you have all that information you've reflected, you understand your story, you know who you want to tell it to your purpose, right? There's a lot of upfront work. Then we can start to think about what channels do you online? Do you want to tell that? And is it a LinkedIn profile? Is your audience even on LinkedIn? Maybe they're somewhere else looking for things, right? If you're in the creative field, maybe they're on Behance. And so really thinking about what channels do you want to show your story in and then customizing your story to those channels. And all of that is aligned with a design thinking framework, right? When you start out really empathizing, that's like the, what's your story now you're defining the problem. That's really your purpose and audience. You're ID'ing prototype and testing that story when you're choosing channels, customizing, testing out your story. And beneath all of that, is having a feedback network. So we often talk about you need to develop a feedback network. So who's in your network? Who are the low stakes, people that are, maybe you have a significant other, you have family, you have co workers that you feel comfortable with, all the way to those high stakes folks. Are there employers, managers that you want to share this with that you can then get feedback to make sure that story is landing? But that's short. Maybe not so short version of that. But yeah, that's the, that's like the basis of the framework. And then we have frameworks around DEI and AI related to that. 

And I'm going to go ahead and plug right now for listeners. These two guests, Sheetal and Michael are going to be presenting a webinar for the NCDA webinar series coming up on February 6th to talk more about that framework and all the work that they're doing. So mark your calendars and watch for registration to open on that. Yeah. And you might get a chance to hear about I know Sheetal mentioned, she walked us through the digital presence framework. But there's a particular activity we do in that first step, around thinking about what your story is now, what information is already out there about you and what story is being told. We have a Google yourself activity that we've utilized on some of the workshops that we've done that have been really helpful. It's been funny facilitating some of those, but also being a witness to some of those and even practicing it myself, just simply doing a quick search of my name. I'm not vain at all when I do that, but just doing a quick search to see what story is being told about me in spaces when I'm not present for it. I know Shito has also. Authored, a newer, a new approach and incorporating AI into that sort of activity to get a better sense of, all right, if you're utilizing some of these generative AI tools, what story is being told about you there? It's just, it's so tough right now because you want to control the narrative about yourself. But it's really difficult to do so because there's just so many channels through which information is being filtered through and you're not present in all of those. And so I really like that activity. It gives you a chance to see what's out there right now. And that just gives you a foundation on which for you can then start to reflect about. What's feeding into that story that's being told about me. And now I can turn my attention towards controlling some of the aspects that again, I can actually control. 

I'm looking forward to that. It's going to be a great session. So thank you in advance. Both of you for being there for that. And that's a good segue. You brought an AI there, Michael. What do we need to know? What do career practitioners need to know right now about how generative AI is changing? How students and clients should build their digital presence? Pretty big question. I would say there are a lot of aspects to generative AI. I'll try to see if I can come up with my top three. I think the first thing is we shouldn't make an assumption, especially if you're working with a younger population that they know how to do this. I think we made that assumption with social media. I work in marketing as well and people would hire interns and be like, Oh, you know how to use social media, not in the way that we need them to, when it comes to a structured purpose. And I think the same thing goes for gen AI tools where they might be familiar with the tools, but not necessarily how to use them in this respect. So making sure there's some skilling that needs to happen of letting, your students or clients, et cetera, now, like, how do I use gen AI in the digital presence process or the selling storytelling process? And the second piece is making sure we think about. Just setting the foundation again, before getting into the tools of like ethics and responsibility here. We want to be careful about how data is shared, especially when it comes to your identity. 

Like I said, this is like a soul searching process sometimes. And so if you're sharing information with a Gen AI tool, you want to know how your data is being used. And then also with whatever's being output that you're not misrepresenting yourself as well. Those two things are just kind of foundational things to keep in mind. And then I think the great thing about Gen AI tools, though, is they can make the work faster. It can really help in that reflection process. I think that's what we found. And just make the process more approachable for trying to create that digital presence. So we've been experimenting with, we develop our Gen AI experimenting with different tools. But also the prompts that can help you reflect. You, for example, you can create a quick app within chat, GPT or co pilot to say, Hey, ask me questions to help me reflect and understand my values. And it will ask you a series of questions. So you can start to think about an input and we'll, and start to generate. So that's the other foundational piece I should mention is. It's a place to start, not a place to end. And I think that's really important, right? So it can ask you, it can prompt it, ask questions, and we have some of that information that we'll be sharing, but that it it's really important that, it can help you reflect, but it's a place to start, a place to end. Mike, what would you add? I would just add be careful because as sophisticated as these generative AI tools are, they are prone to hallucinations. And for example, I've typed in my name or started typing my name. I've utilized one of the prompts that we have there to Get an insight saying what's, what is the story being told about Michael Joyner Hill? And I've used it on a couple of the tools. I won't specify which ones, but a couple of them. And I've gotten responses that say that I am, I've worked with Christian Bale. I've worked with other famous directors and things like that. I've never acted on a thing in my life. So I actually don't know where that came up with. So again it's, again it's a wonderful tool. It is absolutely an aid in the process. However, you do just have to be careful. You have to be responsible. And of course, use, good discernment. Your best judgment and understanding the information that it does share with you and also the information that you're choosing to share with it. And then not making it as hey, just because Jenny I says this is exactly like the truth like no this is just like one tool to help aid you in your process. Yeah, we can think about it as like part of your feedback network, right? That you're reflecting. And it's you might talk to other folks, but your Gen AI tool might be easier to access in the moment and make that work quicker and be a place to start that you could then have other conversations as well. So I like to think about it as like a tool within the process, but not the angle. 

Yeah, those are helpful ways to set realistic expectations, I think, for what you can expect for working with those tools as well as how to best use them so that they are helping and not potentially hindering in some way. Let's switch gears a little bit for this sort of last section. Of our episode, and you both mentioned DEI you mentioned working with students and helping them to make decisions about how they're going to express their various identities in a digital way through their profiles or portfolios and, other interactions that they have online. What kind of questions are students and clients asking now when it comes to DEI and what can we do to help them navigate that? I'm getting a lot of questions about what's too much or what's not enough in terms of what should I be sharing, what should I not be sharing how do I control, what's being understood based on, what I share about, certain identities and Yeah, to be honest, I'm, I tell students all the time, it's difficult and there is no one size fits all. There is no one answer that I can tell you that's going to necessarily apply the exact same way for someone else. It is a personal choice. And so what I often encourage students to do is to be really mindful of what they are choosing to include, but also be really intentional about it. You can only control so much about how someone interprets the information that you are sharing, especially when you're not again, physically present there to clarify anything that they may misunderstand about what you've what you've chosen to share. 

That being said, all of these different social identities, these are part of who you are, right? And they are a key aspects of why you care about what you care about the things that maybe you're passionate about the changes that you're aiming to make in the world and in your small, smaller community, if that is, the scope of your world at that moment. And. Don't you don't have to be afraid of sharing those. You don't necessarily need to shy away from doing so. That being said, be responsible, be intentional and recognize that if you take, an attempt at trying to share something and maybe it's not received the way that you want. These ePortfolios, you can change them you can certainly reflect, you can go back and say, you know what, this didn't land the way that I wanted to or it's, it's generating a response or an impression of myself that's not really what I want. And so let me go back and let me make some alterations so that story can again be told in a way that I'm really proud of. But certainly I would say these various aspects of your social identity. Nothing to be ashamed of, be proud of that right on be a champion for yourself, and the identities that make you. Also recognizing that, depending upon your audience, you just may feel more comfortable sharing or not sharing certain aspects of your identity, and that decision, whether to share or not share is perfectly fine. Sheetal has mentioned, your feedback network. Absolutely. Talk with other people who know you well. Talk with folks who you trust and get their, their insights on this, get a feel for, what are they understanding when they do encounter you in a digital space, right? It's the message coming across the way that you want they also may just have, more experience, in a particular field with a particular audience around what could or should be shared, or maybe some things that maybe you don't want to share, in this particular medium and I think that feedback network is so key because it can help, spare you from some moments of frustration. If you are again, making sure that you are incorporating other opinions again, folks that you value folks that you trust into your decision making process. 

Yeah. All of that plus one. And then we've gotten so many different questions over the years. Due to, in different environments I think four years ago, there was a big question for international students. What do I share? And there, at least in the United States, there are legal policies, but they can share and not share because it can get them in trouble with their visas. We've had students ask, Hey, do I use an American name or my real name? Whether they've been born and raised here or born outside the United States, I've had Students from the LBGTIA community, they're like, I don't really want to share this or I do want to share that. How's that going to impact me? I have students and professionals who might be politically active, and if they show that, how's that going to impact? So it is a complex thing, right? Like I said, I think people take it lightly sometimes just to put themselves on LinkedIn, but it is good to reflect and think about what are my values around this. There are students and professionals who are like, you know what? I just need the job. I need to make my, I need to support my family. I'm not going to share too much. And that's totally fine. And there are people who are like, Hey, I don't want the job. If they're not going to accept me for who I am. And so I'm going to share it. Any of those decisions are fine. What's really important is that somebody is reflecting on what I am okay and not okay with. And so with that, we usually will walk people, we have a module around this that has three parts, awareness, action, and accountability. So the awareness piece is really thinking about what are your values around sharing and not sharing? Are you, have you thought about it? Do you know what that is? Do you need to talk with someone like a coach to really reflect on that? But be aware of what you are comfortable and not comfortable sharing. And that we may put something out there, but we don't have control. I wish I could tell every student we could control the other person on the other side and their biases, but we can't. And so being aware of that and what decisions you make are important. And then based, now that you've reflected and understand that, then it's time to take action. Okay, as you're building out your ePortfolio or your digital presence, Taking action to make the decision. Okay. I am sharing this. I'm not sharing this. And then you represent that. And then staying accountable is not just leaving it, right? These are dynamic. We mentioned change at the beginning of this conversation. So continuing to come back to check in with yourself, right? It's, circular, not linear, going back to that action and awareness stage of saying, Hey, is this still okay? Am I still good with it? Do I need to change something? Maybe I'm more comfortable. I know for me personally, at the beginning of my career, I would have never shared. That I was married or had kids. And now that I'm at a different career stage, I'm more comfortable doing that. But that is a change within me that I'm now okay with those biases. When I wasn't okay earlier in my career, I used to be I was going for a job for tenure faculty and I'm like, I'm not going to share any of this. But now I am at least at a stage in my life where I'm like, okay, no, I'm not going to work somewhere where they don't respect that. But that's the and again, with this process I think Helen and I have talked. at length about the fact that being authentic online is a privilege to a certain extent too, right? To be able to say, this is who I am for some people, it is a privilege to be able to do that and not be scared of the biases that are on the other side of that. And so it's important for people to recognize that, especially as a coach or counselor advisor right? Watching out for your client, asking those reflection questions to see what that person is okay with when they're sharing online. This reflection process that you all have developed a curriculum around and an outcome around with the e portfolio development sounds exceptionally powerful. 

So thank you both for being here to share this. Is there anything coming up with the lab that you'd like to get the word out about? Yes. Thanks. So aside the N. C. T. A. Webinars coming up in spring semester the lab will also be looking at doing train the trainer sessions. You can check back on our website. Portfolio dot Sanford dot E. D. U. And we will post sessions there if we are, have sessions on helping you understand how you know what prompts you can use in the middle presence or thinking through what are those questions that we mentioned around D. I. But we should have at least one coming up soon in the near. 

Sheetal Patel, Michael Joyner Hill. It has been a pleasure. Thank you both for being here. And we can't wait to see you on the webinar in February. Thank you so much.