AI and the Evolution of Career Development Services with Bret Anderson and Leeann Fields

This episode features a conversation about the use of artificial intelligence (AI) in career development services. Melissa Venable hosts Dr. Bret Anderson of h2 Communication, LLC and Leeann Fields of the University of Nevada, Las Vegas. They discuss the benefits and challenges of using AI tools, sharing examples from their own work. The discussion includes ethical considerations for using AI-generated content, the value of skepticism to vet new tools, and the need for critical thinking by both career practitioners an their students and clients when making decisions about what tools to use, including AI. Cost and budgeting concerns are also discussed. 

More about Bret and Leeann:

Dr. Bret Anderson is President of h2 Communication, LLC, providing job readiness training, executive coaching, and frontline leadership development.

Leeann Fields serves as the Executive Director of the Office of Educational Compliance at the University of Nevada Las Vegas. She has rich experience and leadership in online education coming to UNLV after 16 years with the University of Colorado Denver as a Senior Instructor and Instructional Designer. Prior to that, Leeann served as the head of Quality Assurance for the Cooperative Program for Operational Meteorology, Education and Training (COMET), in Boulder, CO. Her special interest wherever she has worked has been in creating opportunities for growth through professional development offerings. Leeann holds an M.A. in administration, supervision, and curriculum development with an emphasis in instructional technology from University of Colorado Denver’s (UCD) School of Education. 

RESOURCES

• CCSP - Certified Career Services Provider
• CPRW - Certified Professional Resume Writer
• Growth Mindset vs Fixed Mindset
• RAND Veterans Study [PDF]
• ChatGPT
• Gemini

Transcript

Career Practitioner Conversations

National Career Development Association

AI and the Evolution of Career Development Services

Welcome to Career Practitioner Conversations. This podcast is presented by the National Career Development Association Welcome to the podcast. I'm Melissa Venable, NCDA Director of Professional Development, and this episode features a conversation about artificial intelligence in career development services. I am here with Dr. Brett Anderson. Brett is president of H2 Communication LLC, where he provides job readiness training, executive coaching, and frontline leadership development. Welcome back to the podcast, Brett. Thank you, Melissa. It's great to be here. And Brett and I are joined today by Leigh Ann Fields. Leigh Ann is the Executive Director of the University of Nevada, Las Vegas Office of Education Compliance, and she brings to this conversation an extensive background in online education, quality assurance, curriculum development. She's worked in health sciences education, so she's got a lot of expertise we're, we're looking forward to hearing more about. So thanks, Leigh Ann, for joining us today. Great. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. Looking forward to the conversation. So let's get started, uh, with a question about how AI tools might be impacting career service providers right now, um, as well as maybe going a little bit into the future. It seems like AI is, is, is here to stay. What do you think? Absolutely, AI is here to stay. Um, and I know Leigh Ann can validate this through her, um, specialty, uh, understanding, but, um, so, you know, AI has been around for quite some time, but we haven't really kind of seen it from a socialized standpoint or something that's been broadcast the way that it is now. But AI tools have been around for a while, but, um, now the usage of them is, is so predominant I think people just don't understand it, and I'll just give a quick example. So I was working with some military members who work in the Military Family Readiness Center, and part of their function, um, is to help transitioning military members, um, find a way to, to have a, to keep a job. And so part of their function is, uh, they do resume review, and I'm thinking, "Okay, well, you know, resume review's important." And, and if anyone knows in our profession, there's a lot of individuals who compete with CCSPs, and they're called CPRWs, the Certified Professional Resume Writers, and these folks can make really big, big bank, Leigh Ann and, and Melissa, just so you guys know. Well, part of the exercise is to make sure that individuals can write their own resume that I have them do. And so a big portion of that writing their own resume is the accomplishment statement section. So we have this formula that helps these military members translate their military experience into civilian, you know, language. But the most important element of that is being able to have the adjectives and the superlatives that really make sense for the civilian work world. And so what we do is we, I have them write up their own statements, and then I say, "Okay, now put that into ChatGPT or Gemini or one of the tools that are, um, AI-related tools." And voila, these accomplishment statements turn from this boring, militaristic, you know, kind of language into like, wow, this is really good stuff. And I said, "See? This can speed up the process," because it's a hard process putting all this information down and then editing into this format. Instead, just put it all in there and, and let the software do the work. So I think just from that example, it tells me that this is making a big impact on our career. You know, there's drawbacks obviously, but for the most part, this is really accelerating how we're doing our work. And now, um, individuals who are doing like CPRWs or CCSPs that may be doing that type of work can really begin to, to elevate individuals beyond the resume and into the interview piece. So that's been my experience with this. So I don't know. I'll let Lee-Ann give her, you know, her insights. Yeah, I just think it's funny that you say that because in one of the ways it saves me time, I get asked quite often to do, uh, recommendation letters or letters of reference. Do you know how much time that tool saves me? You know, where I'm just struggling, you know, three or four hours trying to put a good letter together, and I can get one of tho- those done in like 25 minutes now. And it sounds like- Yes ... you know, uh, mixing the words with what I know about the person. Yeah. Um, th- the struggle is Not as, uh, lengthy or arduous as it was before. I mean, you really can... It's a time saver. It's such a time saver. Yep. So I can imagine when you apply it to resume. But even in my job, you know, for that simple role, something that I used to- Mm ... struggle with, it's not daunting now because there are tools to help. Amen to that. Yeah, you both hit on maybe one of the most, um, attractive benefits of, of using AI tools, which is just, it's convenient, right? It adds, uh, time to your schedule, uh, it gives you a boost to kind of get a, a draft, to, to get started on, uh, writing kind of, uh, tasks. So what are some of the other potential benefits of AI- Mm ... um, in a, in a private business practice or any kind of counseling or, or coaching kinds of services? Well, for me personally, um, I'm a psychologist and I, I practice psychology in the Denver Metro, but I do it, uh, you know, for several clients a month and a, and several clients a week. And of course, I, I work in a system, and systems require note-taking because they have to, you have to validate your work. So I work in two systems now. I work with, one with the VA, um, group, and then I work also with, um, employee assistance programs. So I've gotta put notes in every time I meet with a client. Okay, that averages 20, sometimes 25 minutes, like Leanne was saying. You know, I can cannibalize quite a bit, but oftentimes it's gotta be so specialized that I, I just can't do a whole bunch. Now with AI, I'm noticing that, oh, I can actually dictate into my phone, and then I have an AI feature, and this is ChatGPT, where it takes my dictation and it just puts it into way more, um, sophisticated terms. Um, and not only that, it's terms that can be, um, used for insurance if necessary. Um, and it's wow, that cuts 15 minutes off my- Yeah ... off my s- my back schedule. So now I'm noticing that, like Leanne was saying, it's such a time saver, but it's also a, a, um, it's a cognitive relief is what I call it. Because now I don't have the mental stress of having to always, you know, I gotta get this particular statement right or it's gonna be re-coded, and then they gotta come back and then I have to rewrite it, and then... No, it, it's precise. It's where it needs to be. So that relief cognitively and just the weight of that is, um, I think worth any price that you pay. Frankly, 'cause I save time. Well, as you're speaking, i- in terms of the benefit, you know, there's always the flip side to everything. So the way that you talk about the benefit, there's also what you have to be careful of. And I think as you're working with people and you're coaching them, you know, into careers and into the industry, there's also this notion of, um, plagiarism and of ethics. You have to also teach people about the tool, but also the improper use of the tool. So you come up with these ideas and the things that are happening, but there's a fine line between using that content as your own and having people understand the implications of plagiarism and the ethics behind that of, you know, taking this work and suddenly claiming it as your own body of work. So I think there's a flip side. It's, you know, in your own personal use and the time-saving efforts that we find, but as we work with people to take these time-saving efforts and put it to professional use, we also have to teach them, you know, about ethics, and we also have to teach them about this idea of citing references and notations and, you know. There's all kinds of tools out there where you run things through for plagiarism and detection, which is another AI feature that teachers are heavily employing now. So if you're sending people back to the classroom, let people know it's a professional obligation to, you know, about origination of your own ideas versus the ideas of someone else, citing that, and then how those ideas help to inspire you and move you forward. So I would just be careful that there's a fine line that we have to guide people in this area, that stuff pops up and you can't suddenly just, you know, claim it as, as yours because you did a search. That reminds me of, uh, um, my youngest daughter's boyfriend. Um, just this weekend he's over here, this is impromptu, but just this weekend he's over here and he says, "I was watching YouTube and I saw some guy say that, you know, you don't ha- if you tell a, a hospital that you're not gonna pay the, the hospital bill, they have to write it off." And then there was this awkward silence with everybody, and we said, "I don't think that's how that works." And so it, it reminds me of what Leanne's saying. You know, we have a, a, a not only an ethical responsibility, but we have a human responsibility to make sure that any information that we're reporting about a philosophy or a perspective someone holds, that you attribute that to yourself, to the other individual, or it's an amalgam of the two. And you're right, AI can just blur that, and you really don't know if it's your perspective or, you know, w- whose philosophy are we talking about here? Um, 'cause what am I, eight years, nine years removed now from my doctorate, and I'm just now entering my philosophical reality phase, right? I'm just now having my ethos, you know, related to that. It takes years to cultivate that. It takes years to, to make that happen. Um, and if people are gonna steal it and they think they can have it in a month, like Leanne's, um, asserting, which I think is an, an accurate assertion, they're missing out on all of those pieces because you don't, you don't develop a philosophy by stealing other people's stuff. You develop a philosophy through education, experience, and exposure, and that just takes time. A- and on top of that, you know, let me add in this component of, uh, critical thinking. You know, when we look at AI Um, and we look at how many things can be mimicked and how many things could be aspired to so and so of, uh, you know, with a collateral status, you know, saying this, when really it's AI popped in with an image or likeness of them. So there's this whole notion too of critical thinking, and don't get me started on the K12 platform because I really think we're doing a disservice. We're, it's kind of like we put kids in a room and sit at a desk and get through your time, you know? I think we're missing that component of really teaching critical thinking, and I can see it in my c- in my kids. So I have kids, you know, 27 to 42, and the issue that they struggle with right now, uh, is they don't know who to believe. Mm. They hear things, and they don't know, you know, where's that critical thinking to- Mm-hmm ... to really discern who's saying it and- Mm ... what they're saying and taking it apart and being able to critically analyze- Mm to get down to the truth of the matter. Mm-hmm. So their problem right now is really what in all aspects of life, y- I mean, they look to the people they know best. Their, their best friends. You know, they're making decisions based on who they're close with because they trust that person. Mm. And they're not able to trust, you know, religious leaders, politicians. I mean, all the people that they hear out there, they're finding it hard to figure out who they trust. Mm. So who they're trusting- Yeah ... is their best friend- ... because they've grown up with them, and they know them. So I think that's- Yeah ... one of the elements when we look at AI. It's another downfall that we have to look at, is strengthening that critical thinking component in education. Yeah. So, so that people can look at all this information coming at them, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, and then trying to seek truth, and, and that's- Yeah ... that's a hard thing 'cause we're in an information age. And it's- And we're bombarded, and so it's- Absolutely ... hard. Trust- Mm-hmm ... is really hard to build- Mm-hmm because we don't, uh- Well, and, and, you know, and I, I don't wanna, um, be... I'm, I'm not gonna take your stance, Lee, on, on the K through 12 system, but, um, 'cause some of the folks that work at N- NCDA and, and are c- constituents of NCDA are phenomenal K through 12 educators, and they, they're, they're in line with where you're at. Mm. Sometimes systems can, can really, you know, cause that particular schism to occur w- with, with students. Yeah. But I think what you're saying has so much merit, and here's why Gaslighting is very popular today, and gaslighting happens at all levels. Mm-hmm. And if you're not a skeptic of the information you're receiving, and you don't know how to resolve that skepticism, you don't know how to make sense of it- Mm-hmm because you aren't equipped with the critical thinking skills to do so, you're right, anything will, will persuade you. That's why I think, you know, my daughter's boyfriend was willing to believe some guy on YouTube- Mm-hmm ... as opposed to individuals who do this work every day, and my daughter happens to work for a law firm. And she's telling him, "That's not how that works." But, you know, he still bought in because he's not a skeptic, like what you're saying, and he doesn't know who to trust. Yeah. So, and, and you're right, does our education process prepare people to do so? Because in a career search, when you're deciding what your vocational self-concept is- Mm-hmm you know, that requires critical thinking. It requires skepticism. And being duped by, um, information or being s- gaslighted, meaning- Mm ... you know, introducing doubt into your development of that I- of that vocational self-concept and that identity is very deleterious. It's harmful- Right ... to what we, to what we're trying to accomplish. A- and a healthy re- and a healthy respect, you know, for debating, like those skills about debating. You know, there's debating issues, and there's healthy dialogues. Conflict is not bad. You know, people sometimes look at conflict, and they pull back and say, "Oh, I don't wanna be in conflict. I d-," you know? But really, conflict is a way that helps you mature ideas, and probably, you know, you think this, you think this, and we come together. We butt heads, but out of that blossoms a whole new creative idea that's worthy of merit and, and moving forward with it, which we would have never had if we didn't have conflict. But we also have to put it in, in perspective of a healthy debate and disagreement. In the confines of respect, you know, without the bullying, without the name-calling, those kinds of things. So I think we've also in society gotten a little bit off track just thinking that because we speak louder and we can call people names and, you know, make them back down, that we've proved our point. A- and not necessarily. So I think just like you said, that healthy skepticism, the mindset to investigate, to research, um, I think those are some of the skills that, that people who are willing to make those kinds of investments will, will go farther, um, in their career path because they are just able to bring so much more diversity to the table. Mm-hmm. You know, you don't get into- That's the key ... kind of group think, that kind of thing, that you're really- That's it ... but those positions will also, you know, kind of put you out on a ledge, and you'll be by yourself, you know, a little bit, and so it takes a really thick skin- Mm-hmm ... to understand- Mm-hmm when you're out there on that tree limb all by yourself trying to prove a point, um, it's hard. That's, that's hard to do. I, I really appreciate where this conversation is going, and that you're sh- showing the flip side. Um, these tools are convenient, AI tools. We can generate all kinds of content. We can, um, use it as drafts. We can post it as our own. So, uh, not only do we as career development professionals need to know what we're using, know about these tools and how they work, we also need to be conveying to the students and clients that we're working with that, uh, they can use these tools, but they need to do so in, in ethical ways and, and really think about how... purposefully using these tools, uh, in their career development and job search. But also that the rest of the world is using these tools in ways that m- may not even be very evident, uh, like the videos, um, uh, like companies, uh, influencers. Like, uh, Leanne, you mentioned just how much information, uh, is out there. Uh, how do we... What are your recommendations for how our audience can work with students and clients to not only sh- say these tools are beneficial- Mm-hmm ... but how can we encourage that critical thinking- Mm-hmm ... so that we can build, uh, bridges f- for trust? Yeah, I think, um, you know, Leanne touched on it and I'm just gonna expand on what, what she touched on, and that's this notion of being out there on the ledge and, and realizing that, hold on, you know, we need to stay in this space. Um, I think one of the biggest, um, elements of learning is teaching skepticism and rewarding skepticism. You want people to question. You want people to, to be, um, you know, to have doubt, but appropriate doubt. Um, you know, I've known Leanne for quite some time, and, you know, she's, she's always held a, a, a perspective and a philosophy on learning that, that I respect and, and I really enjoy. I didn't always agree, but I respect and enjoy. And yet, you know, she hung onto that, and sooner or later, you know, it does move in that direction at some point. And you wanna be able to have a trusted source, like Leanne says, you know, someone you can trust, who can give you the insights of that, of that, of that road, of that journey. Because the journey to know who you are, and I'm just gonna speak from, from my experience with veterans, for them to figure out their vocational self-concept is really a hard journey for them because they come from a system, a co-culture that has taught them how to do things in a specific way, and it's not always the way that civilians learn, and I'll give an example. Um, RAND, Research and Development, did a study back in 2022, and they found that, um, between the first four years of an enlisted member's experience with the military, um, the military spends about 134% of this member's salary on training them to do their job Okay, tell me what company is going to do that. Um, civilians live in a sink or swim environment that, you know, y- you get thrown into your job Two weeks later, you're seeing clients. Good luck. No, the military's not about that. And so you get, you get this real, you know, th- this- that's a very friendly learning environment when you go through simulations and simulations upon simulations, and learnings and videos and trainings, and you get a lot of one-on-one mentorship. That's a very friendly learning environment. And so you have this, I don't wanna call it false, but I think you have an u- you, you start to believe that, "Well, I did it in the military, so therefore I must have liked it." Well, that's not true. Um, so occasionally you need choice, you need options, and this is what Leigh Ann was trying to get across. This is what, this is what helps us become better as, as people. Um, because, you know, holding one perspective and thinking that's the way to go is just, it's just harmful to that, to the population that I work with. Because, um, I'll give another statistic. I'm sorry for throwing those out there. I was always told be careful with your statistics, but these are real statistics. 58% of the individuals who transition out of the military do not wanna do what they did in the military. What they did in the military was a mission that was given to them. They were voluntold, basically, "This is what you're gonna do," and that's how they did it. So when they leave the military or they're transitioning away from the military, whether it be a separatee or a retiree, they really don't know what they wanna do. Because they know what they did, but they don't know what they really wanna do, and that takes a time to explore that. And if you don't have the right critical thinking skills and you're not, you know, um, going to the right trusted resources, and you're starting to believe things that, that are coming through, uh, artificial intelligence or some algorithm, you begin, you begin to get this confirmation bias and this echo chamber that doesn't really help you. You need to be able to expand, you know, your, um, aperture, see the full landscape so that you can make better choices. Um, I think for me personally, I think that's the most harmful piece of all of this because it's pushing us into this one-size-fits-all approach to career development, and that, that's never gonna be effective o- over time. I think artificial intelligence brings a lot to the table. It helps us do our jobs more effective, can do our jobs more efficiently. It can be a time saver. But artificial intelligence, I think, is never really going to replace human interaction. You know, the things that you have to look forward to with artificial intelligence in terms of cutting down, uh, finding algegori- algorithms, time-saving mechanisms, but it doesn't bring out- Advocacy. You know, a robot doesn't advocate for you, you know? A, an application doesn't have that advocacy component. It doesn't have the emotional component. You know, that's one of the things about humans and our, um, being unpredictable is because we can be emotional, you know? And you have all these facts put in place about- What's good for you, and this is why you should have the surgery. And you think they're there, and all of a sudden the patient says, "Oh, I can't..." You know, and they're emotional. There's no program or app that's gonna come in and counter that emotional feeling, you know? That's a human that's going to come in to make that trust and that connection, and make those facts and statistics about why you need this operation, you know, come to fruition. AI can't do those kinds of things. So, you know, you look to advocacy, you look about the emotional component, the understanding, the empathy, and even collaboration. I mean, s- to some point, AI can come in and there's some collaborative efforts about AI. But in general, you know, that whole notion of collaborating and reaching outside of the scope of what that app or that artificial intelligence is capable of doing, and it's that critical thinking to make you recognize that it's not expanding into these areas. So AI is helpful, but in many, many respects, especially when it comes to healthcare and, you know, av- things like nursing and those kinds of things, I don't think we have to look for AI to be replacing jobs, because it can't take over the advocacy components. It can't take over the emotional unpredictability that you have to factor in and deal with. It can't take over empathy and understanding. So I, I think as much as AI, we look to it as a tool. We see it as a tool. A tool. One of many different types of tools. But we give it its proper due. C- but in the bigger sphere of things, there's many other factors that have to be considered in the totality of how effective and, you know, how useful AI is. And it has its place and it's not going anywhere, and it's only going to, you know, be growing. Mm-hmm. But there are human factors that we still have to consider. There's all the data, and the data spits out, "Okay, this should be your next step." Yeah. But that data doesn't spit out the family dynamics. That data doesn't spit out the cultural implications of that family making a decision, because taking blood in this certain s- instance is a factor that goes against their religion. So there's all these other implications that cause you to- Mm ... you know, have to, um, just be- Dehumanize, yeah ... you know? Mm-hmm. There, there has to be... AI is certainly take it where you can, and there's many, many ways where we adopt it and, and it's helpful. But it's never gonna really replace the human factor, and I think, too, that's what people need to- Have less fear about, um, because one of the fears people have with AI is it's just going to take their job. You even look at jobs where you're self-checkouts now, and people are doing the self-checkout of their own thing, and people are losing jobs. Guess what? Especially like in California, they're reverting back to cashiers. They're changing it. Why? Because they're finding out their loss margin of theft is increasing greatly because of the self-checkout, and it was much less when they had cashiers doing the work of checking people out. So even though you think, "Oh, yeah, well, we don't have to pay people to do this anymore," uh, guess what? You know, time will tell. You know, so there's a lot of things that, you know, put our eggs in a basket, and we test it out, and then we figure out, "Hmm, turns out that wasn't as great as we thought it was gonna be." Correct. And I tell you, one thing I think that validates your point, Leigh Ann, um, WebMD. I mean, I've diagnosed myself with many things on WebMD, just so you know. And I know that I know 'cause when I go in the doctor's office, I say, "WebMD said." Right? And then they have to do the human thing and say, "Well, Brent, maybe that's not exactly what's going on." So yeah, very well said in terms of key points. These examples- Mm-hmm ... um, are about helping professions and, and how we, we can't turn that over completely, right, to a robot, as you mentioned Or to technology in general. And, uh, where, uh, these medical examples, these healthcare examples I think are not unlike our career development examples where we're working- Oh, certainly one-on-one with a student or client i- in, in that kind of context where they're bringing all of these variables, these background pieces, uh, these needs that are unique- Mm-hmm ... to them. We can use these tools to augment what we're doing, but we, we... It, it doesn't make sense to, to turn everything over completely. Yeah. And I, I- if I can give a career-related example, um, I was at the, uh, the NCDA conference. Um, I was looking for a platform 'cause my, in my practice, I'm expanding my practice. Um, and I wanna go, I wanna do more private work instead of just working with veterans. And part of that means that I, I, you know, I have to come up with three life skills that are really important because invariably, no matter what therapeutic technique you're using, these three life skills always seem to come up, and that's work, money, and relationships. I have a money platform. I have a platform in which I can help you figure out how your finances are working and, you know, that works really well. So I was looking for a career platform 'cause I have a relationship platform as well. Well, come to find out there's some really good ones out there, but a lot of them are using- How do I say this? Myers-Briggs as their way of deciding and helping or, or guiding someone in terms of their culture fit within a company. And I'm like, well, Myers-Briggs isn't, like, the best tool to do that with because it just has the nuances that, that Liam is describing. And it-- the problem is that it forces these individuals into this sort of one size. This platform was forcing individuals into this one-size-fits-all model for how you can assess personality when you're going into a workspace. Well, you know, that's not evidence-based. I mean, the, the I'm sure there's data to validate it, but the problem is it's using that tool, Myers-Briggs, because it's so popular, and there's a whole bunch of information on the web about, you know, Myers-Briggs, and as a result, it's using, it's collecting all that data and then using it as its standard. Well, like Liam mentioned, that takes out the human element. Look, a one-size-fits-all or a wide brush is not gonna decide or help determine what your culture fit's gonna be within a particular organization. And there are many tools that help do that, but some are more accurate than others. The problem is the most accurate tools, the ones that are nuanced, are not popular, and therefore... You know, I don't know, I'm not, I'm not the supreme expert or authority on AI, but I know this. If that's what it's using to s- as a selection tool to then base its prediction about whether you're gonna be successful in a particular area, that is not the right tool. There's more tools, like Liam said, that need to be in-included. This is one tool, but there are many others that are probably more precise to you as a particular job seeker or applicant, and we need to focus on those. And as a practitioner, I need to understand the difference between what's being collected and then what I can use going forward If I need to enhance it. Yeah You know, we're finding out all kinds of things aren't really accurate predictors of success. You know? I mean, you look at some of the entrance exams that colleges want you to take, GRE to go into grad school and the couple of undergrad exams they have. Um, there's actually studies out there that show that GPA is a better predictor than some of those tests are of your, of your element for success. It's complicated. There's a lot of different components to consider, and I think even with the test that you referenced, um, the data that they're collecting, it's taken out of context in terms of what it was gathered for, and it's used in other arenas that it wasn't necessarily meant to support, but they're taking it and supporting it without the proper research to make sure. You know, that's a leap of faith that can be made, and it's not true. Exactly. Exactly. Just because you have the data, a pool of data, you have to be careful what you take that pool of data and apply it to because that's not in the context of what you're applying it to. That's not in the context of why it was gathered. Excellent. Yeah. And again, it's back to those, you know, critical thinking skills of what you're hearing, why you're hearing it. Um, and I think as career counselors, there's just... I guess one of the things that you gotta consider in a role like that is the minute you think you know it all and nobody can tell you anything, it's time to retire. Because you're just constantly learning. You know, you have to have a mindset- Mm ... when you're, when you're dealing with all these things. I, I mean, how do you keep on being successful? I'm, I'm so looking forward to retirement. I'm almost there. But, you know, year after year in terms of a 40-year c- how do you continue to be successful? And I think one of the things that, that we have to kind of help guide people in is this notion of, um, alw- always being a learner, you know, to always being a learner and continuous education, um, that, you know, we just can't rest on our laurels. Things change. Things are constantly- Right ... changing. Right. So the more that you can be flexible, the more that you can be adaptable, flexible, amenable to change, collaborate, critical, critically thinking, you know, about elements because change is inevitable. It's gonna happen. Mm-hmm. And as soon as... I, I mean, I just would use one software and, man, I'm the expert on it, you know, and then all of a sudden it's like- Version two. Like, huh? Remember. And three months later- Yeah ... it's version three. That's right. Like, wait a minute. Yeah. I haven't even got to... Yeah. So it used to be, life used to be a rollercoaster. Yeah. And especially for us, that older generation, it was, we would ride success up to the top of that hill. Mm-hmm. You know, hit peak, and then we'd ride it down, and we'd float and circle around. Guess what? Hmm. We don't get to ride it down and float for a while. The, it just keeps change- It's, yep ... change, change. Yep. It's not much. You know, if it's a little hill- Yeah ... it's just a tiny little baby hill that we get to go down, and then boop, we're back up to change. Right back up, yeah. So I think that it's important, you know, as we're working p- Mm ... with people to help them understand the dynamics and, a- and the times that we live in. Mm. Mm. That be- being flexible, being collaborative, you know, embracing the change, and looking to AI as, as those tools that can help you with change. It's again, a tool. Yeah, yeah. You know, to look for ways to keep on the edge, you know, to, to- Mm-hmm ... to understand the direction of where a career might be going. It's a tool that'll help you do that. But it won't help you if you're not open to it, if you're not- Being closed ... coming with a mind of, of- Being closed ... collaborating, if you're not coming with a mind of accepting, you know, change and being flexible. And I think those are one of the greatest elements that we can help impart to people in, in this day and age, is the willingness to be flexible. Because if you're rigid, and you're steadfast, and you're digging your heels in- Mm-hmm ... you know, that's gonna cost you in the long run. Yeah. My father worked for a tire plant for years in Dayton, Dayton Tire and Rubber, and my dad thought his future was secure there. Put in so many years, and that's where he was gonna retire. This plant, however, did not make the adaptations to go to steel-belted radial. And guess what? My dad, after 20-some years thinking he's going to retire, finds himself in the workforce because the plant shut down because the lack of forethought of where the trajectory was heading. Mm-hmm. And he found himself, devastatingly so, unemployed. Mm-hmm. Mm. After 27 years. Fortunately, my dad, uh, has a strong constitution, and he picked up the ball and started r- but it hit him hard. So especially when you're looking with people who have been in a path and been there so long, and either through their choice or ch- no choice of theirs at all, they find themselves- Mm-hmm having to make a change after so long. Mm-hmm. What's going to help them? And that ability to be flexible- Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm ... it is really key in being successful and being able to move on Yeah, and I think, um, I, I'm gonna punctuate this, Lianne, with some statements you said to me when we were talking about online education. This is way back in the, in mid-'90s, late-'90s. She said, "Brett, you can put information online, or you can have an online system. You can, you know, you can have an online pro- program." And I was like, "Okay." I didn't really know the difference. But once I got into it, "Oh, I see." You know, we were just putting stuff online. We weren't having an online system. It wasn't interactive, and it didn't do the work. So you have to learn to, to be adaptable in that sense. But one thing that I've learned is that AI is helping to accelerate. It's a catalyst for evolution. But if you have a fixed mindset like what Lianne is describing, you're bounded by a certain structure, and you're re- you're resistant to evolve, to change, to move forward, you know, to have an expansive mindset. And, um, AI really can, can contribute to that, but you've got to do the work to, to, um, to be less bounded, yeah, um, by, by that system, to be adaptable. Um, and so if we're using AI, AI as a tool in our evolution as people, um, then the other tools have to certainly be your network, right? Um, we always say this, 20% of the jobs that are posted, um, out there in the world doesn't represent all jobs. 80% are not posted. Um, you know, there's people that get jobs all the time, and you never even knew that they were open. Well, you only, you only know that because you're connected to a network of individuals. And so AI certainly can, can, can accelerate how you're, or be a catalyst to how you're adapting and being more adaptable. But what it can't do is it can't develop a network for you. It won't expand that network. It won't grow that network. You have to do that work yourself. And a- as a career counselor, that's one of the things that I put supreme emphasis on. You've gotta be able to talk to people. And we haven't really talked about the implication of cost, which is another important variable. You know, education systems, whether it be K-12 or, or universities, are struggling to keep up with the cost of just upgrading computer systems, you know, because that's has to be in an IT budget, where you're constantly, you know, five years a computer life expectancy is about shot, and you need new computers, new processors. You know, that's just with technology that we're all pretty well familiar with now. You get a laptop, and you get five years out of it, and you've all of a sudden you need a new laptop. So imagine the added sophistication of some of these AI tools and the Adding on top of budgets. So when you're looking all this, the other struggle, you know, to advancement is not only maintaining a certain level of IT, both in your personal and professional work, but where it's taking you and that added burden of cost, and budgeting for that. Understand that there's a certain level of commitment and investment that you have to make, you know, keeping up with the times. Y- you can't hardly get away with not having a smartphone anymore. You know, and I, and I look at education systems and they're talking about, "Oh, we're banning phones in the classroom." And I'm like, people are coming to you with a computer in their hand. Why are you banning it? Why aren't you looking at ways of looking at it as a tool? Stop making it a distraction. Be creative. You know, you got 30 students walking in with a computer in their hand, and now we've- Yes ... gotta keep our minds open to the possibilities. Mm-hmm. We have to be open-minded, flexible, creative, not looking at, you know, AI and technology as, as a distractor. As a barrier, yeah. Yeah, as a barrier included. So just as you're thinking too about career counseling and where people are going, there is that element of cost to consider, and opening people's mindset to the fact of these technologies have expiration dates on them. And we talked about change, change, change, keep going. To not let it settle in people's minds that this can't be kind of a regular mindset of having to keep up means an investment in, in these tools as well. Some of it you're gonna have to take on and do on your own. There is an, an element of cost that's involved to all of this that- Mm-hmm that needs to be considered and budgeted for, and helping people understand how they're going to meet those expectations. So I should, like, trade in my flip phone, is that what you're telling me? Okay, message received. I'll turn, I'll turn it in next week. Well said. Budgeting and costs, um, are often the thing that make the decisions for us, so we absolutely need to be more flexible when thinking about how we're using the resources that we have, uh- Yeah uh, before even bringing new tools in. Yeah, uh, Brett and Lynn, this has been amazing. Uh, a lot of food for thought here. This is a conversation we could probably have hours more on. Uh, and I'm hoping that what you're doing here is sparking conversations that are gonna happen when our listeners take this back, um, to, to their colleagues and, and their communities, because the, the conversation continues, and we're gonna be making choices about these tools as they come and go. Thank you both so much, uh, for this conversation. I hope to, uh, have you both back on the podcast again soon. Thanks. Thanks, Melissa. Thank you so much. Appreciate it.