Career Practitioner Conversations with NCDA

Connecting DEIB and Career Development Work with Dr. Monica P. Band

August 08, 2022 NCDA Season 1 Episode 5
Career Practitioner Conversations with NCDA
Connecting DEIB and Career Development Work with Dr. Monica P. Band
Show Notes Transcript

This episode is the second in our Presidential Series - hosted by NCDA president, Dr. Sharon Givens – it features a conversation with Dr. Monica P. Band, licensed mental health counselor and mental health justice advocate. This courageous conversation addresses how career development professionals can advocate for students, clients, and themselves to advance diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging (DEIB) as leaders and practitioners in the field. Learn more about Dr. Band’s work at https://www.drmonicapband.com.

Career Practitioner Conversations with NCDA

 

Season 1. Episode 5: Connecting DEIB and Career Development Work

 

Transcript

 

Sharon Givens: Good afternoon, Dr. Band! 

 

Monica Band: How are you, Dr. Givens? I am great. I love sharing a space with you. It's few and far between. But honestly, when I, when I saw you, immediately, I just felt seen. So, thanks for holding this space for me. I appreciate it.

 

Sharon Givens: And just thank you for taking the time to be with us today and sharing your knowledge. You know, one of my goals was to have this podcast or what we're calling a career conversation and sometimes courageous career conversation. So, thank you today. And we're just going to kind of talk about a few things that really, honestly that I think are very, very important to feel even personally. And it's important to me in terms of making sure that our clients and whatever space they're in, that they are receiving equitable services, they're feeling like they matter and that we are conscious as practitioners that we're creating spaces of inclusiveness. And so, what I want to do is ask you a few questions. I really want to kind of pick your brain in today. 

 

Monica Band: Okay. 

 

Sharon Givens: You know, we've heard a lot, of course, particularly in the last 2 to 3 years about social justice. But one of the things that I think is important, is to bring that into career development, career counseling, and real practicing. So, through your lens, what role does social justice play in career development services as we interact and work with people? 

 

Monica Band: Oh, so I, I have to start this question by centering sort of my own privilege and position in this, because a lot of how I'm going to answer this question has a lot to do with who I am. And so, for those listeners who can't see who I am, I am an Asian-American woman and I practice in America. And even though NCDA does have a lot of international folks as well, a lot of my own perspective is going to be centered around the U.S. and conversations about that. But even just acknowledging that piece and perspective, we have to keep in mind that that's not the full picture. And so, I caveat sort of what I say and taking with a grain of salt, thinking about that particular nationality and my ethnicity, gender, and they'll be more sort of intersections to that as I'm sure we move forward in this conversation. 

 

But the reason I bring that up in the beginning is because when you ask me about what role social justice plays in career development services, I immediately simplify it. I immediately go to, well, everything, period. And the reason I answer it that way is because at least from my perspective and as a child of immigrants, the American dream was edged on the success of, success defined as being dependent on how we contribute to society, and that contribution is aligned with what we do for society and what we're able to produce for society. And that comes in the form of our career. And so, you have generations of people in this country who are fed, and I'm sure younger generations have different evolving feelings about this. However, the intergenerational message is that career development is so important because it speaks to the way in which we can find class mobility, where we can find respect, where we can give ourselves our energy, are our pieces of our lives essentially, and invest in our career. And all hinged on the hope that we will be reciprocated in kind for that. And that's one piece. So, there's that immigrant piece that I think of just broadly about what it means to buy into this this old American dream belief. There's this other piece, too, that we have to think about when it comes to equities. Another thing we're going to get into, I heard you say in the beginning, but equality, we're not even at equity. We have to get to equality first, which I feel is like a baby step. Because when I think about what that means as being a woman or being in the BIPOC community there, there have been exclusions in legislation about spaces and occupations even that we can hold. And I'm sure I don't need to reiterate to your listeners who are probably even more knowledgeable on this, but for me, even just the wage gap generally speaking, and you know, the disparities in that. So social justice playing a role in career development has everything to do with the way we construct what it means in our career, how we define success, how we define, you know, who we are as Americans. You know, just again, centering myself as an American. So, there's a little bit of what comes to mind when you ask me that question. 

 

Sharon Givens: Absolutely. I really like what you said about, you know, starting with equality before equity, because I think that sometimes people skip the step and then it doesn't have the level of transformation and that space that it that it needs to have. 

 

Monica Band: So I kind of, if I could interrupt there, because I want to riff off of something you said. I know you're interviewing me in a way, but I love just sort of, you know, as I would say, sort of our vibe together, Dr. Givens. And there's something that I have thought of, and maybe not everyone holds this belief, but when it comes to equity and, you know, we think of the “I” in a lot of ways diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging in this space. And I don't know if we can be totally inclusive and have equity at the same time. I know that's a controversial opinion, but it's just something to consider that we can be inclusive of everyone. But when we're talking about equity, we are considering who in a lot of ways needs more resources than not. And that will exclude certain people, often the majority. So, I riff off what you said and just sort of plant that seed maybe for later, maybe where you turn to it or not. Or maybe it's just for your listeners to think about the concepts differently. But I just wanted to interject that while I had you on that topic. 

 

Sharon Givens: Yeah, I think that's something for us to really think about. And what if that was the true goal to have inclusiveness and equity, if people made that the target goal, how things could possibly be different. So, I'm thinking about this for career development professionals. We're the ones, of course, doing the work, engaging on a consistent basis. How do we make sure that we are staying current and, you know, with the trends of diversity and equity and inclusion and as you know, I brought you to work with our board and have an opportunity and a space for us to maybe look more deeply inward to see what we needed to do, even as leaders and as practitioners. But I think when you step into the threshold of leadership, that we have to be held to a higher standard. And that's the way that I look at it. And being president means that I have a higher standard. And so, and you were so amazing and so thankful. And I am. Thank you. But how do we stay current as we continue to do this work? 

 

Monica Band: Well, I think you were alluding to it in some of the language you are already using and how you are sort of living your vision as a president, which is it comes from. It comes from acknowledging your power in the position as a as a leader and what you plan to do with that privilege and that sort of platform, even if it's or even a short term. And it really does come from the top down. The sort of next thing that I'll pivot to is to broadly say we can surround ourselves with diverse perspectives. Right? It was a real honor to meet your board and to just have the undivided attention of really good intentioned folks who are open hearted, open minded and want to learn how to do better. And I got that sense. And it's to your point, it's the how. Right? Because we're all practitioners. 

 

So eventually there's this pivot to, okay, we're all on the same page. We agree this is important, but then how do we begin to pivot to it? And for those folks who are listening from an organizational level, it starts with really assessing your policy. And even before that, it's critically asking who created the policy in the first place? Who are the leaders? Who are the leaders there at the table creating them? And something that we talked about in that training you're referring to is at a very sort of macro level, look at the historical context in which these policies were even created and drafted because every policy and every strategic plan and those following objectives comes from a need, a need that wasn't build or a need that was set as important then. But who deems what's important? The people in power. So, it's very systemic in the way that leaders are tasked to really consider the EIB in their in their plan. The other thing that I want to share with you for more of a practitioner level and that's on a micro level, is to consider that there is a real need for development and empowerment when it comes to people who are interested but just don't know how to get involved. And I think as leaders, you work your way up the chain and sometimes, you know, we lose sight that what is common sense to us is not actually common knowledge distilled to people who are not part of these spaces, and our conversations generally. 

 

And so, if I think about my mom is a first gen college student, I think about sort of what it takes for a college student to navigate certain systems that they don't you know, you don't know what you don't know. You hear that old phrase, you don't know what kind of questions to ask if you just don't know. And there is a lot that I think even leaders and organizations can do to make that information more accessible to people, really asking them what is obvious, because it's not going to be to us. We're too close to it at this point. 

 

Sharon Givens: So, a part of, I think, the reason, too, that we wanted you to come in and have this dialog and basically do some soul searching, there is to think about what are some common mistakes that we possibly make. And I know that's pretty broad because, you know, we're doing work in so many different spaces and different modalities or whatever. But you think about, I wonder what are some common mistakes that practitioners make, particularly around career development regarding diversity, equity, and inclusion? 

 

Monica Band: Mm hmm. Well, I think the first is, you know, I go back to that idea or definition of success that we talked about, the first question you asked, and we really have to interrogate our individual definition of success and then what we view as success for our organization as a whole. Because when we're working and I think that kind of called a question is even relevant to practitioners listening, right? I mean, how are we looking for successful outcomes when we're working with clients one on one or students one on one, for example? And our construction of that definition is defined by our culture. We are looking for success through the lens of what we feel is important and further right that can be influenced by people outside of us.

 

I think about sort of working with a lot of API clients, for example, just at a micro level, kind of moving back and forth between systems here with you. But on a micro level, working with a lot of API clients, especially on career development related issues, a lot of their definition of success comes from their community, comes from their family, comes from these external definitions and pressures, and maybe individually there's something that they agree with within that definition, but maybe how they're measuring achievement is very different. Then how it is. Signed by these other systems. 

 

So, when we're working when we're working with our clients or even organizationally in larger groups, we have to be thinking first and foremost, am I making a mistake? Am I biased in believing that what I'm looking for as a successful outcome? Is that what other people are believing? Are we on the same page that what that person also believes is a successful outcome because those definitions are socially constructed for us? So that's really the biggest mistake I think we can make is to get too comfortable on our own definitions and not take a humbling sort of moment to our ego and recognize that we may be in a room full of other people who are measuring success and outcome measures in a very different way than we are. So that's the first piece. 

 

And the next piece I want to draw your attention to is also thinking through it. I don't know if you had a chance to look at this particular research as it came out, 2022 actually this year, McKinsey and Company, which is a large consulting firm, had this research piece done with over 13,000 folks for a piece they called “The Great Attrition.” And they looked at the top reasons why people were quitting jobs between April 2021 and April 2022, the first being lack of career development and advancement. How much are we taking space up for other people that we could empower or take with us? And as a woman of color, I have been really nurtured by other women of color and people of color who have a different philosophical belief in that, that there's room for us in abundance rather than sort of this scarcity mindset that I think is very justified from an intergenerational trauma perspective. I get why we as BIPOC women have that mindset, but I also have been nurtured as I use that emphasize that word again by BIPOC women leaders who see things differently. They're trailblazers, in their own right, and they push up against that old narrative and recognize space for all of us, actually. And if you, even if we're not of the same race or of the same ethnicity, this is about us kind of capital. And so, I go back to some of these findings on a more micro level. And I think to myself, well, career development from a practitioner level, you know, in that room, in that office space, is a microcosm of what's actually happening outside of society. And if we look at, you know, at least from this research study, that the number one reason people are quitting their jobs is because there's lack of investment in career development and advancement or empowerment, as I like to refer to it. Man, we're not doing something right by people behind us. Right? 

 

Sharon Givens: So what really stands out is that advancement versus empowerment. 

 

Monica Band: Yeah. 

 

Sharon Givens: I think that's powerful because I think people make that assumption, which feeds into the mistakes that you said, success. Well, what I think is success may not be based on the client, their perspective. And that's why we have to have these culturally sensitive approaches. 

 

Monica Band: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Because you can put someone in there and say, okay, you're in power now. You got the position, you got all the responsibility included. But if I don't see anyone around me that can represent me or sees me fully, understands my intersections, I'm not going to know what to do in that space. And in fact, it's a disservice to someone's confidence or just systemically to other people around them to advance someone with a lack of career development. They both go hand in hand. Right. And for that to be the main reason, at least, again, I only cite this particular research, but for that to be the biggest reason why people are quitting their jobs. There's something awful about that, right? We're not we're not investing in human capital, if that's the case. 

 

Sharon Givens: Absolutely. But it sounds like, you know, I'm just my wheels are turning here. But as practitioners as well, we can't wait for the big companies to do all the empowerment we have to start as we work with clients individually, should be a big piece of what we do is to empower them. 

 

Monica Band: Yes. Yes. And that requires a lot of risk. Taking it feels like a risk at first because it's uncertain. You know, you don't know kind of what you're going to get when you when you make a risk like that, you make a step and you are vulnerable in that way. And you try to, you know, advocate for your client or even advocate for yourself, find your voice in these spaces, which can be really hard and scary at first when you're maybe combating imposter phenomenon or syndrome. But, you know, I bring that up because if I tease out the other. So, the top three reasons why people have left their job, I know kind of, you know, give you a cliffhanger here. But, you know, the first one, as I had mentioned and reiterated, is lack of career development advancement. The next one is inequitable, equitable, total compensation, which is probably no surprise to most people. And the next one. So, the last of the top three is on uncaring and uninspiring leaders. Yeah. Wow. How does that feel for you to hear? I mean, as a leader? Right? I've been in leadership positions, too. That's discouraging for me. But I don't know. How does that fit for you? 

 

Sharon Givens: Right. It doesn't sit well. It's so interesting that you say that because, you know, my whole slogan at first, you know, a lot of my fellow board members, they were tickled, they were excited when I started and I came up with “every member matters” and I said, I know it's so much deeper than that now. And when I've meant is that it doesn't matter who you are, which constituency group you belong to, that every member matters. And my whole message was, if you haven't started practicing, if you are a student, your background, your culture, you're important to this association rather than you're a member, because and sometimes we get into well, “I've been a member for 20 years,” the hierarchy. 

 

Monica Band: Yes, yes. 

 

Sharon Givens: And that's what I wanted to say. Now you're here. You've committed your resources to this association. 

 

Monica Band: You matter. And that, Dr. Givens, is an uncomfortable sort of reality to hold both. I want to respect the historical and institutional knowledge. Right. I understand that you have value as someone who has been here and a seasoned practitioner who has been in this space or a member. Right. For X amount of years. But I also realize that I vowed not and not only do I value historical relevance and historical institutional knowledge, but I also value growth. And that doesn't always you know, there's tension in that, too, because that means I have to also evolve with thought and move forward and beyond. Right. The historical piece. And that's not to forget the history because you and I have talked about we need to remember the good, bad, ugly that comes with our history. But yeah, we also have to empower and, you know, advance people who are starting out very, you know, having, hoping to have, long term careers as career professionals. 

 

Sharon Givens: Yeah, absolutely. And you're right, it's somewhat of a juggle because we would not be where we are right now if we didn't have those historical figures. So, we certainly value those, but also a message that if you're not a part of that, we value to you, we value all of you. And is really the true message that I wanted to say, we appreciate what you've done, all the people that came before us, and then how do we grow from the new people that now are part as well? 

 

Monica Band: Yeah. For therapists and people who are in this healing and helping work, it's really a take your word in a different way. It really tickles me because even we as humans have a hard time with the both and it's like you can have both rather than the either/or, you know, or one or the other. It can be hard for us to sit in the complexity of having these things coexist and respect them. Yeah. 

 

Sharon Givens: I like that. They coexist, but this is so interesting and we're kind of moving into another question that I have for you is as the current leader of the association, what suggestions would you give me to promote and champion DEI practices? 

 

Monica Band: Well, when I heard this question, I kind of giggled a little bit because I feel a little uncomfortable telling you what to do as the leader in some ways. You know, there's a part of me that wants to just say, hey, you're doing a great job. But I love the question because to your point and to what we talked about earlier, it's important to have humbling reminders to our egos as leaders to be open to and actually explicitly ask, how am I doing and what can I do better? So, I do appreciate the question, but I will say a part of me was like, oh, I don't want to tell Dr. Givens what to do as a leader, what else you can do or, you know, to promote. Well, the first is delegate. You cannot and nor can anyone tackle something as systemic as DEI be practices by yourself. Delegates who believe that you can, I think is going to be a misstep across the board because it's also emotionally draining work. And if you're listening and you are a BIPOC leader or you are someone who's in these spaces, it's very personal work and it is going to be emotionally exhausting and you're not going to be good for you or anyone as a leader if you are shouldering that responsibility all for yourself. And I felt, you know, just on a personal anecdote, I, I know that feeling, not just as someone who is a servant leader for the American Housing Association, but also as someone who, as a professor, once taught multicultural counseling a few semesters in a row, because that is a very personal, contextual class and one that does require a lot of checking in on with yourself. Right. And, you know, there is a part of me holding on to the heaviness of the responsibility of that. Wow, this is the first time a lot of these students are going to hear this information. I'm sort of the first messenger, the first person that's going to be sharing this content with them. And while I felt that it was exciting, it was also very significant. And I put a lot of pressure on myself. And so, I say delegate because it's not all on you, nor should it be. 

 

The next thing that I'll say to champion and promote DEI practices is that you need to have buy in with your leadership board. If you do not, then a lot of the strategy, while it may be idealistic or value based or however you want to put it, is just not operationally going to be seen through. It's going to be a line item. And unfortunately, that's a lot of what happens when you have big organizations, bureaucratic ones, that that we end up getting caught sort of in the wheel. And people again, go back to the I agree it's important, but I disagree and how it's done. But I'm not quite sure how it's done. Right. Like and so there's more infighting in that way. And so, I would really get buy in with people who are in power first. And that's not to say. That's not to say people can't have their doubts. I think the EIB work requires people to feel extremely uncomfortable. We're very tribal, social people, you know, and so we're going to have our own opinions. So, we're going to feel threatened initially when we bring up new ideas and we emphasize certain needs of other people over others. Right. Or you may have heard the adage, “you know, well, that's just not how it's been done.” Right? A lot of people in leadership hear that when they're coming up against questioning and challenges. And so, what I would say to that is have all those conversations, because if you're making someone uncomfortable enough, not unsafe, but uncomfortable, then you're doing something right to begin to broach difficult dialogs. So, lead by in delegating. And then the other part that I would say is, kind of similarly surround yourself with diverse perspectives. If you are making decisions as a leader for people who either personally don't have lived experience and understanding or are not representative on your leadership board, then you need to create infinity or interest groups or task forces that allow people to share their opinions on what's happening in their communities, as well as representatives of their communities. 

 

And the last big tricky piece where I think organizations need to focus, is compensation. When you do decide, you know, when you do the DEIB work, you are going to be leaning on the knowledge and expertise of a lot of marginalized, often folks who have not had voices in places. And you are leveraging your power as a leader to ask for their knowledge and your ask. And that is a lot of emotional labor. And to ask that, certainly their choice if they feel some sort of pull to provide some sort of service to you. But if you are not ready or willing to have a conversation about compensation, which can feel uncomfortable, right, but necessary, that's going to be really hard to expect a lot of people to do things for free when there's already inequity in our spaces. Right. We get cringeworthy when it comes to talking about money because that's how we've been socialized. But so often who's left out of those conversations and who doesn't have the tools to negotiate for themselves? Because that's all socially learned and that that usually speaks to people who are BIPOC folks. 

 

Sharon Givens: One of the things that I've been trying to do is approach this from not a place to point out there's so much wrong, but on approaching it through: want to grow in this area because I see where people are, where we need to because this is wrong. We want to make wrongs right. But I want to look at it particularly as a leader through. I want to expand the scope of DEI because it enhances our growth. 

 

Monica Band: Mm hmm. Well, I think you're right. I think there's a balance of both. I think if I could go out on a limb and say some of what's driving that motivation is because there's a need, kind of right act that needs assessment type thing. But that doesn't mean it's wrong. Like, you know, that, you know, like you're doing something wrong or misstep and you're talking about how do I enhance what we've already done? I think of that way. I think that when I speak to supervisors, when I talk to folks about their clinical skills and these are folks who are pre-licensed professionals and they're, they're newly conceptualizing clients and they're trying out new interventions. And honestly, at baseline, most of the time I'm like, That's wonderful. I wouldn't change a thing. Here are some other options if you want to enhance the dialog for sure, right? And so, I think maybe it's a matter of building up confidence, individual confidence among leadership to say we can do this, that and we can do this, we're equipped to do this. We're not reinventing the wheel completely. This is not you know, you can already use the transferable skills and knowledge. You have to be a part of this. Your voice is important just as much as the next. And here are other options to layer on what we're already doing to make this that much more important or more applicable and more accessible, as we talked about earlier with other people. 

 

Sharon Givens: And I think my original thought to you, you may be a little more insightful here, is that I wanted it to be perceived as okay, not everything is wrong. There's growth so that I could get more buy in, but maybe throughout that process, maybe correct some things that are, because, you're right, because there is money there, which may mean that there are some things that need to be done differently. And so, I think my approach was though, like this is for growth, but not to call for a correction. 

 

Monica Band: I get that. I get that. But just like I said earlier, as far as leaders go, especially a president, because that's you know, you're at the top of the pyramid, it's like how much of what you're doing, but more importantly, how much are you withholding is coming from your own oppressed identities. Yeah. You know, if we think about like the way in which we express ourselves and our identities to the world around us, there are certain things that are just so obvious to people. Right? I'm a woman of color. That's obvious, for example. But there are things that I can choose whether or not I share based on that, and there's some inherent privilege to that. I wonder how much some of how you approach, and this goes for everyone who's listening, who's also maybe a person of color in a leadership role. But I wonder how much you choose to share. The messaging is informed by who you are and kind of comforting other people, making other people feel, you know, buy in or better about that and how much of that you have to with. Old your own personal disagreement with. Right? Because we rationalize while I'm in a leadership position now, I can't do that. I got to be a little more political. But also, I'm angry about this because this has been, you know, affecting my communities historically. And I don't want to come off as that angry Asian person, angry black person. Angry, right. You name it. Then they're not going to take me seriously as a woman. You know, you start layering on all these things and you begin to realize I'm filtering out my own message and what's really important to me, because I'm more worried and concerned about the optic of that and how people will receive me than I am about being myself. Right? That's tricky. That's a tricky balance. 

 

Sharon Givens: Okay. You just hit a few home runs there. You're so on target. And I've thought of that because I'm a person, that I strive to be authentic. And you're right, it does have to be a balance. And so, I think sometimes I try to do things without necessarily the personal disclosure, but there could be a portion of it could be of the motive, could be because of my experiences. And I'm like, if this happened with me, how many other people have experienced that? And how can I address that? Not for me, not for this next person, but for a group of people. 

 

Monica Band: Mm hmm. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting. Like, I'll just kind of speak from personal anecdote. This is kind of detouring off from career development that I'll loop it back into the work. I mean, when the API violence and hate was really at its peak in 2020 and still ongoing in major cities like L.A. and in New York, still, I don't want to discount that, but I had a lot of folks checking in on me. And equally, I had a lot of folks during the BLM movement and in protesting around D.C. I also equally checked in with a lot of my friends as well, and it hits people in different ways. But it was in moments of crisis and violence, I had people acknowledge my color. Which was really odd because as much as I appreciate the care and I'm glad people see me, so whoever is listening and who did that, thank you. That's not me criticizing that moment, but it's me because I did feel cared for and I did need the check in. So that's not me saying don't do that, but it's me saying let's interact together in that relationship. Why is it that only in these moments I am acknowledged fully as a woman of color? Why is it not mostly during my success or when I'm trying to share my opinion about, you know, the change that needs to occur or why do I have to be the one to say it and leverage it rather than to say, like, okay, President Dr. Givens, maybe this topic of conversation is so important to you because you are a woman of color and you have been affected as a president. And that does inform your interaction. It does inform your strategic plan. And just airing that out can be so liberating to say like, yeah, that's a that's a part of me and what I'm going to be doing. I don't need to be apologetic for it. It's not a crisis. We're not in crisis. You know, we're simply saying like. We can have preventative and very normalizing conversations about our identities without having to be this big, heavy thing all the time. You know that's true. That makes them a little bit. 

 

Sharon Givens: Yeah, it does make sense. And as you were talking, I was telling myself, you know, maybe and sometimes there are internal conversations that you need to make external. And I think I thought, well, if I kind of do the work, people will get the message. But I think sometimes I need to actually express the message and talk through, you know, my experiences to say this is a lot of why I'm doing the work. 

 

Monica Band: Yeah. Something that we talk a lot about as and vice president for API concerns for the Association for Multicultural Counseling and Development, AMC. And every time we get together as a group, a membership group, we talk about the importance of representation and visibility. And so, you're not wrong. Dr. Givens. I think in a lot of ways you just being present and there and representative is powerful. What I'll also say is to your point about like, how can we enhance the dialog? That next step may be having these very vulnerable, sort of, yeah, these are my inner thoughts, but I'm sure I'm not the only person who's going to be in this position or have some universality like-minded to it. And to say like, yeah, these are the things you generally struggle with in this space when you hold these intersections, or I want to empower other women of color and to know that it's possible to do this, but it's not without its own considerations to talk through. And that I'll be a mentor in that respect or I'll just be a sounding board if things get hard. Yeah. So, I think that might be the next step. 

 

Sharon Givens: Yeah, I like that, I like that and I appreciate it because I think it would be a good next step. And I think I'm at a point that I can do that and it will be great benefit to others. 

 

Monica Band: Mm hmm. 

 

Sharon Givens: So just in thinking, what are some overall best practices regarding DEI in delivering career development services? And as you know, our association, we are divided into constituency groups and of course, higher ed agencies, business and industry. There are several people like you and I who are in private practice are we have a K through 12 community where people are delivering these services. And that's… 

 

Monica Band: Amazing. 

 

Sharon Givens: And then, of course, our counselor educators. So now first of all, practices that really, really, really would touch all of our constituency group that they could use are, again, good dialog and conversations about diversity, equity and inclusion. 

 

Monica Band: Well, I think gone are the days where we can't not bring in, so we have to bring in conversations about what's happening in the world. Right. So, blame globalization or blame the Internet. I don't know. But, you know, there is just, there is going to have to be a recognition that what is happening in the world is and it has always directly impacted our economic standing and thus our career development prospects, employment, housing, you name it. The trickle down effect of how we as a society interact with the news and responded to it is inevitable. I'm really interested and excited about sort of what younger generations are doing. I identify as a millennial, but there are folks to Gen Z years and younger even who are really changing the narrative when it comes to what it means to emphasize sort of career and career development. And honestly, your K through 12 specialist folks probably know even that much more than I do. But what I will say, and the shift is, that there's this general notion that, you know, work is not my personality, nor is it my, you know, nor is it my complete identity. Right. I don't, I don't dream of labor. Right? You know, and you probably you may have seen those memes are sort of tick tock. But, you know, the idea of like, well, what do you want to be when you grow up? What do you dream about? And people are like, I don't dream about labor. This is not something that I want to be doing. You know, that's such a radical shift of even how when I grew up, because I was raised by baby boomers, who you could argue are sort of the most like are the grinders, right? You know, they pride themselves on being called the greatest generation. And, you know, I'm not going to get into sort of generational in-fighting here, but what I'll say is that there's a shift there's a complete shift in the way people want to approach work. And I think the lines get blurred with COVID, you know, and sort of the movement towards teleworking and even telehealth sort of in this digital age. But when we talk about the DEIB, we have to keep in mind that as these things may generally be shifting for the sort of smaller middle class or middle economy, we also have to think about the people who are left out of the conversation, and those are our rural folks and those are folks who don't have access to what we would consider everyday as sort of basic necessities to get the job done. And so, when I think of overall best practices for delivering career development services, you have to be thinking about how am I going to reach this person who doesn't have Internet? How am I going to not assume that people are coming in with the resourcing that I did when I was younger? And for me, I take a lot of value in my career. I mean, honestly, I kind of gave up all of my twenties to pursue my doctorate. You know, I made different choices in life, you know, so I was committed. But I am not the I'm not the norm. And I say that I don't say that as sort of a badge of honor. I say that as in like just notice that because you're going to have these exceptional young folks often with, you know, some with more privilege than others. But if we’re pivoting a little bit, if we only look at those exceptional people as sort of the norm, for lack of a better word, then we're going to miss out on a whole conversation, whole communities of people who need our services more than most. So that's a long-winded way of me saying consider who's the, who's not at the table and recognize that not everyone's going to view or be okay with work being their, part of their identity. In fact, they may actively reject it. 

 

Sharon Givens: It's very thought provoking and it really does trend across all of our groups because I you know, I started this work in K through 12 and I'm just remembering how even, you know kids you had a group of kids like well, I just you know, “if I graduate from school, it's fine not looking toward a career.” And then you have this other group that like, you know, the parents are at the forefront and you're going to be a doctor. You're going to be a lawyer. So, yeah, it's just interesting.

 

Monica Band: I realize there can be danger, and sort of broad stroking here. What I have found, though, and sort of the trend and how we can inform best practices is by considering the cultural aspect. Generation is one of them. If you think about it. Well, I was raised by baby boomers, you know, now you have millennials and Gen X’ers raising Gen Z’ers. And we have gone through a Great Recession. We've gone through, we have witnessed our parents lose everything in spite of all of their work. And that, I think, is really different. If I can emphasize maybe more culturally that movement, is that my parents witnessed their parents. So, the baby boomers witnessed their parents go through World War Two, come through the Great Depression. And that was a real boom for some. Not all, right. We're talking about like the working class folks who had made themselves up in sort of white collar spaces, depending on their level of privilege and opportunity. And overall, though, you could argue that that was a very industrious time or era for America. They were sort of a leading world power. Flash forward to 2022. That's not necessarily the case. And in fact, we, my generation, has witnessed how our grandparents and our parents have actually been disowned with all their loyalty. Right. We're jaded. We're disillusioned. Right. There's a general sense of, well, why would I dedicate my whole life, time and energy to be put into some something, right, or a company or an organization and not be taken care of in the way that I thought this American dream would shake out. And having a partner who's originally from Ohio and thinking about sort of the Rust Belt and sort of how industry sort of came and sort of changed the landscape of a lot of people who migrated there. They were also let go and left out. You had a lot of working class folks coming from like Appalachia, for example, in the Rust Belt. And they and they were not treated or taken care of well in the way they thought they would. And so, you have a whole generation witnessing that. Trust sort of rupturing sort of with organizations and companies and you know, I think that's where some of the historically speaking, I think that's where a lot of the trust is coming from. And the last thing I'll say is just to keep in mind that when we're talking about folks of multiple marginalized communities, we were never even in the conversation or anything like that. That's no, we're not even a part of that, that we're like somewhere else, you know? 

 

So, I overall, when I work with my folks who are in their early twenties, you know, in college or out of college, there's so much disillusionment and sort of a loss of that listlessness of like, okay, so I know I don't want my work to be my identity or my personality, but then what is it? Right. Because for multiple generations it has been this. I watched my parents do this and dedicated. So that's with it with folks who are also have a lot of existential dread about our world and sort of climate change there. There's a lot of folks who are also like. And for what? Right. Because there's a lot of dread, you know. So anyway, so I did not end it on a hopeful note, Dr. Given's, but at least I hope I provided some historical grounding for where my thoughts are coming from. 

 

Sharon Givens: Absolutely, which I think is really, really important. I so appreciate you. 

 

Monica Band: I appreciate you. Thanks for giving me space to share our experience. 

 

Sharon Givens: And I appreciate the conversation. And I am hoping that, and I feel certain, you know, our listeners will really, really benefit immensely from that. 

 

Well, I appreciate your time because I think it’s most valuable. And I'll see you soon, hopefully.

 

Monica Band: Yeah, that would be great. 

 

Sharon Givens: Thank you so much.